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12 September 2009 @ 03:47 pm
SPN: "Sympathy for the Devil" Episode Review + Meta  
To be honest, I'm still too excited since the premiere that when I started writing my review I couldn't get the words out correctly. My mind was in a whirlwind of enthusiasm that the only thing I could manage for the first several tries was "OMG SO FRAKKING AWESOME" and just so much "OMGOMGOMG". I finally stopped and got at least coherent sentences, although my brain is still so scattered with many thoughts that I don't think it's as profound as others have been. But whatever, I can always write more meta later, which you all know I will eventually.

Supernatural 5.01 "Sympathy for the Devil"

The fifth season premiere begins with a bang, more accurately a flash of white light, as it picks up directly as it left us in the season four finale after Sam killed Lilith and Sam and Dean kill Ruby, and they are standing in the middle of the convent watching Lucifer rise from his eternal prison. They try to leave but are trapped as Lucifer is nearly almost on the brink of destroying the entire convent...until suddenly both Sam and Dean are mysteriously transported onto a plane that is flying over the town they were just in, as they both see the bright light from the convent explode, announcing Lucifer has risen.

Back on the ground they go to Chuck's, only to find his home completely trashed and to discover that Castiel was killed by the archangel that appeared just only hours ago. This is when Zachariah and his main angel posse appear to bring forth "good news" to Dean, saying they are all on the same side now. Dean refuses anything to do with them, and sends them away using the same sigil that Castiel used in the finale. Things get more interesting as a message, given from Chuck, reveal the location of the Sword of Michael, the archangel that had defeated Lucifer the first time, and is the only weapon that can help Dean defeat him again. After a run-in with a possessed Bobby and a few other demons who learn this information through them, they go to the location which was John Winchester's secret warehouse filled with supplies. Only to discover Zachariah is there, and yet another startling revelation that it is Dean Winchester who is the embodiment of Michael's sword, as he will become the vessel of Michael to defeat Lucifer. Until he gives his consent of course, which Dean does not, and Zachariah is displeased with this.

Fortunately, much to everyone's surprise, Castiel shows up and lays the smiting smackdown on the angel henchmen and tells Zachariah off, saving the boys. He then brands them with a protective sigil that will keep them hidden, but before anything else is revealed of his mysterious resurrection and a shitload of masterful kung fu skills, Castiel disappears leaving Sam and Dean confused, but alive and relieved that Castiel is alive, as well. Meanwhile, Lucifer has tracked down his chosen vessel and begins to manipulate, via guilt and sympathies, to give consent to become his vessel, which the man eventually agrees.

The final scene, after all that is said and done, leaves us uncertain of the future before them. The Apocalypse has started, Lucifer has risen, the angels and demons are pining for control of the Winchesters, and there is nothing left but each other to make it through this holy war. However, more devastatingly is Dean confessing everything is not okay between him and his brother, that he doesn't trust Sam after all what he'd done, and the episode leaves the two brothers together, but distant.


Dean Winchester's Special Destiny: The Embodiment of Michael's Sword?

Interestingly it's only been like what, a day since the episode aired and already so much meta and discussion in regards to the revelation of Dean possibly being Michael's vessel in the holy war to defeat Lucifer, among other things. I kinda love this fandom, really I do.

So far there is much talk about bloodlines and how Dean could be considered special in terms of being a chosen vessel when he, himself, couldn't have seen or hear Castiel when he first appeared to him in the premiere of last season. I've been trying to mole this over myself, whether or not he's special in that kind of way or if this is something entirely different in and of itself. The bloodlines of special individuals who are chosen to be vessels for specific otherworldly creatures such as celestial beings has never quite been explained or explored enough in canon to really make any kind of proper speculation, at least for me. Unless we learn something new in this season which gives something more to this, I'm completely at loss at how to explain away the differences in bloodlines and such, whether it be with the Jimmy Novak situation or Lucifer or whoever else in chosen to be vessels of particular powerful celestial beings.

However in terms of Dean and his Special Destiny, I don't think this is the case.

It's been said everything had been long foretold of this unraveling of the Apocalypse, of the righteous man breaking in Hell and everything else that sets it all in motion, though had it really been Dean this entire time? Was this predicted long ago by oracles or prophets, or the angels themselves, of the Winchester legacy starting back from Mary Winchester and her deal with the YED to present day? Does the Winchester line have that special "bloodline" that can only be activated if it's part of prophecy? After John sold himself to Hell it was predicted he would break thus setting forth the Seals breaking and the Apocalypse, but he didn't. It was Dean. If John had broke in Hell, would the angels gone after him and he would've been the one chosen to be Michael's vessel? Or had it really been Dean the entire time?

Even so, the part of the prophecy of "the righteous man who starts it, is the only one who can finish it" seems to mean that it is Dean and Dean alone that has to defeat Lucifer, with or without divine intervention. I'm leaning towards the latter.

As evidenced in this episode, I honestly cannot see Dean consenting unless it is the absolute last resort to take. Given how untrustworthy and heartless and cold Zachariah and his pals seem, Dean definitely does not want anything to do with them and whatever his special destiny inquires, although I would love him to accept his destiny at some point, but definitely not in the way that Zachariah wants him to, that's for sure. We don't even know for sure that Michael is going to be willing to enter Dean as his vessel, given that Zachariah is mightily persistent in getting Dean to actually agree to consenting and that we know that it is the angel in question that should be asking the human they will be inhabiting for permission of taking over their body. Of course, therein lies the other issue: if, perchance, Dean does give his consent would this make Michael be Dean, or Dean still Dean only with angelical influence inside of him? Since Michael is considered an archangel, I don't think we've seen archangels enter human vessels before in the show. Maybe it might be entirely different than, say, the other angels taking vessels.

My theory has been, and will remain, that the Dean/Michael connection is merely metaphorical. I strongly believe that Dean will possibly be influenced by such divine help, but only he alone will defeat Lucifer in the end. Since Lucifer despises humanity so much, it would be highly ironic that a human being would defeat him. Poetic justice, in a sense. Moreover is the theme in the show about the strength and the resilience of humanity, and it would be cheating if Michael entered Dean as a vessel and took credit for killing Lucifer, again, aside from Dean who would only be a container for the powerful archangel and had done nothing. No, I feel this is Dean's time. There's a lot of things Dean needs to resolve about himself, the acceptance of this destiny, forgiveness of what's happened in his life, resolving the emotional turmoil with his brother, and so on. I feel that this season will focus on how Dean will manage to overcome all this overwhelming information and whether he is willing to accept his calling.

I go a little more indepth of this theory with my Dean Winchester and his Special Destiny meta piece in case anyone wants to see more of what I had to say prior to this episode airing, which still remains pretty much the same.


Castiel's Resurrection: Mysterious Influence of the Almighty or Something Else Entirely?

So knowing beforehand that Castiel is going to be a primary player this season, the whole "Castiel was killed by the archangel" thing in the beginning wasn't necessarily shocking as it should have been. But the intriguing part is how he returns and the mystery revolving who or what resurrected him, and there's been much speculation to this in fandom which I find interesting. The most popular theory concocted is that it was God that intervened in not only saving Sam and Dean from the convent as Lucifer was arising, but also by means of resurrecting Castiel which is definitely a plausible explanation, though I have theories of my own that go along with that.

Everyone knows that I am deeply in love with the theological aspect the show has conjured up since last season, the introduction of angel mythology and religious lore mixed in with the show's own mythology and everything in connection to that. However, I would kinda love it if they kept the existence or perhaps the identity of God ambiguous. We've been introduced to the concept that even angels are doubting His existence and presence in Heaven, I think it would be more interesting if we have that large question mark in whether or not it was actually God that orchestrated these events of saving the Winchesters and Castiel, and leaving it all for speculation not only for the characters and their personal beliefs of what happened, but also for the audience so it doesn't seem like they're too preaching the idea of God present in this universe. Sorta like going the Battlestar Galactica route of not really knowing whether or not there is a One True God out there, an all-powerful divine being that has a plan for everything and everyone, but that there might just be something mysterious out there without an actual definite answer of whether God truly does exist or if this is just the natural design of the universe.

Obviously, something did orchestrate these events that wasn't part of Zachariah or the other angel's plans, and Castiel does have a particular season-long mission because of this. What this mission is, I haven't the slightest clue since I haven't read further spoilers, but I'm predicting it'll get really interesting.

Other theories point to maybe an archangel was responsible, which I can also get behind of this as well. Perhaps there really is a dividing line in Heaven now, with the Zachariah and his posse of angels and archangels versus the other side, with Castiel and possibly other angels like him and archangels as well. A civil war in Heaven, which I have been wanting to happen since last season! Maybe when Castiel was destroyed by the archangel that appeared at Chuck's, another archangel (or one of the higher ups in Heaven) resurrected him for whatever purpose to bring back the natural order of things and help the Winchesters in this holy war. It's not entirely clear whether Castiel is fighting alone based on his decision to standby humanity and the Winchesters or if, whoever/whatever brought him back has new plans for him, but all I do know is that Castiel giving Zachariah the upper hand this time and bringing a sense of fear and anxiety to his former superior from his mysterious return, which seems to really catch Zachariah off guard and terrified, and rightfully so. Also, keep in mind that Castiel has never doubted God; he still has strong faith and belief in his Father even though he's questioned the orders that's come from Heaven and realizing what his superiors have planned, which is NOT in God's plan that be believes in. So yeah, I definitely think faith and belief play a huge role in this.

Whatever is revealed, I hope that this alonwill be epic and awesome and nothing cheesy, as they did with the whole "grace-in-a-bottle/tree" bullshit, which I pretend never happened. But I think Kripke and the writers know what they're doing with this as they've been very respectful towards the religious aspect of the show except for that whole 4.09/4.10 mistake. So I trust that they have something big and epic planned for whatever is to be unveiled of this mystery.


The Rising of Lucifer

I have yet to form a real opinion about Lucifer, or rather his chosen vessel (played by Mark Pellegrino). I will say though that "sympathy for the devil" is certainly the card they're playing at here. I am very intrigued with how they'll handle the Lucifer situation, how this chosen human, named Nick, and his tragic past will be in connection with the whole bigger scheme of things. Supernatural has been very precise about choices and freewill and the inevitable tragedies that one endures, and this Nick guys definitely fits that category of agreeing to something without fully aware of what he's getting himself into, much like Jimmy Novak in a way.

I'm really hoping they made Lucifer sympathetic enough because of what he mentioned of loving God to much and felt betrayed, yet terrifying and threatening and manipulative because of how much vengeance and hatred he holds because of it, and that Lucifer is a horrifying being that will wreck all havoc on Earth and humanity and Heaven and everything else that has betrayed him. If handled correctly, it can be a very fascinating storyline of Lucifer along with his vessel.

There's also that connection between Lucifer and Sam, and even Castiel. Sam had belief in God and angels, but since last season we see that faith dwindling away and now with the betrayal of not only Ruby but feeling rejected by his own brother, he feels utterly alone. Maybe once meeting Lucifer he can be convinced otherwise, which can become problematic, but again Lucifer needs to be so charismatic yet sympathetic all at the same time that even Sam, despite the Ruby situation, will continue to follow the same pathway he was going towards. Those similarities of feeling betrayed, of feeling ostracized and looked down on because of their reputations and not for who they are or their motivations for doing so, I can totally see Lucifer manipulating Sam into that same mindset. The same with Castiel, although it might be different if they ever confront each other because Castiel favors humanity, is compassionate about humans and even choose humanity over his own brothers and sisters in Heaven. For the most part, I see quarreling and disgust on Lucifer's end, though I can see him enticing Castiel with joining his side, much like Uriel had tried to do previously. With the doubts, not knowing where the orders come from and if God truly is on their side.

Of course I doubt that Castiel would ever join Lucifer, seeing as he'll be beside Dean the entire time. Nevertheless, I'm hoping for a Lucifer versus Castiel showdown in the future.

I do hope we see more of Lucifer and how Mark will portray him. Will it be as sympathetic as the woman Lucifer appeared to him before gaining permission, or was that all a ploy since he can't really say "hey, I'm Lucifer and I want to destroy the world, mind if I borrow your body to do so?" Being manipulative and cunning in ways of words can be something Lucifer excels in, which is perhaps one of the reasons that, before he Fell, he gained many followers in Heaven. Since Lucifer is not a demon, but an angel, I am looking forward to how this is all going to play out this season.


The Winchester Brothers: Together But Distant

I'm actually incredibly relieved they are not just kissing and making up after all that's happened. I know fandom is mourning and thinking they should, as they've done so before. But this is entirely different as opposed to the other times. Truthfully, Sam had this coming ever since his behavior last season, and he has to suffer the consequences of his actions. It's just more realistic because there are wounds that cannot be healed that quickly.

I'm not ragging on Sam, I love him and I know he's deeply and truly sorry. Dean understands this, but somehow Sam just doesn't understand why Dean is acting the way he is, and that's what's irritating to me about how he's behaving especially in this episode. He's constantly apologizing about not knowing about Ruby's true intentions, about not knowing that Lilith was the final seal, that he unintentionally and inadvertently unleashed Lucifer from his prison. All that is understandable, and if it were underneath normal circumstances I'm sure it would be forgiven and all would be fine between them. But this is not what Dean is devastated and disappointed in Sam the most. Throughout most of season four Sam had this chip on his shoulder, thinking he was the one to stop Lilith, thinking that Dean couldn't handle it, the lying and sneaking out at night with Ruby, practicing his demonic powers, drinking demon blood, choosing Ruby over Dean...all of that is too much to be forgiven automatically. Sam hurt Dean too much, that a simple apology isn't going to magically make everything he did disappear. It just does not happen.

How many times have we done something so bad that it takes a long time before we can redeem and prove ourselves to someone that we aren't to make that same mistake or and worthy of being trusted again? This is the situation that's happening between Sam and Dean right now. It hurts I know, we want the boys back together. But Dean is in the right: they will never be the same again. They will never be as they once were before, and that's the harsh reality they have to face.

But this doesn't mean they'll be separated forever. They'll need this time to be distant to look at themselves, redeem and make amends and repair their relationship as brothers again and, believe me when I say, this will make them stronger then ever before. Sometimes you need these obstacles to overcome in order to have that stronger, more reliable, connection. The Winchesters will prevail, just not right away. They need this time apart to join up together later, better and badder and stronger.

That is why I love that they're continuing in this direction for them being in a rift. I'm looking forward to more of the brotherly angst, because what is Supernatural without the angst? Come one now.


Memorable Moments from the Premiere:

++ The "road so far" seemed different from the previous ones, so much crammed in there. But it was awesome nonetheless. Also, the moment where Castiel shows up with the "this is a vessel" there is that voiceover of him that I hadn't heard before, of him saying about giving consent? Obviously a hint to what they would be dealing with in this but still, is that from like the extended/deleted DVD stuff or was that added? Either way, loved it.

++ And how we jump directly to where we left off in the finale. Lucifer rising -- and did anyone else hear the growling creature noises? It was ominous and freaking scary, dude. O_O

++ When they transported to the airplane, I was half-expecting Dean to be freaking the fuck out. Because he hates flying. Am I the only one?

++ NEW TITLE CARD! NEW TITLE CARD! LOVE IT, HOLY SHIT!

++ I love Chuck. I fucking love Chuck and him speaking for the audience. "This sucks ass." Yep, it totally does Chuck. Also him thwacking Sam on the head? Will never get old, never ever. Also, pulling the molar from his hair, and him saying that he's had a bad day? LOLARIOUS, and also very true. Poor Chuck, I hope they don't kill him off. He's awesome.

++ Can I just say that Dean gets all the cool insults for Zachariah? Love the creativity there.

++ "MY FRIEND CAS!" MY FRIEND CAS!" ♥ ♥ ♥

++ FANGIRL. WRITING WINCEST. IN THE SHOW. HOLY MOTHERFUCKING SHIT THAT IS JUST TOTALLY AWESOME A ON WHOLE DIFFERENT LEVEL! Just the fact they can incestuous gay porn passed the censors of network television in such a blatant manner is impressive, and I totally love you so much right now Kripke. I know others will be uncomfortable because of it, but you kow what? I'm repeating what serrico mentioned in her little review: if we're allowed to write fanfiction about the show, they are totally allowed to write fanfiction about us, the fandom. It's a completely circle now, the love is mutual and come on, they mock because they love us.

++ "YOU'RE SO FIRM!" LOLING FOREVER U GUISE, LOLING FOREVER.

++ I'm actually very curious about Nick and his backstory, and whether the murder of his wife and child was accidental or intentional. Like the incident had been inevitable because he was Lucifer's chosen vessel, and unless he had something to sympathize with he wouldn't have consented to be Lucifer's meatsuit. Destiny and fate, the poor sap. I do wonder if Nick will play a role later on though, and not just as the vessel but more as the person. Should be interesting.

++ LOVED that they had a girl!Lucifer. LOVELOVELOVE.

++ Also, MEG HAS RETURNED! \O/\O/\O/ I was wondering when she would reappear again, since she wasn't killed off when we last saw her, and she's an important asset and enemy of the Winchesters so, yay. I love the actress that played her too, I thought she did a good job at mimicking Nicki Aycox in her words and mannerisms, especially with kissing Dean. I know some are bitching about her, but whatever. I liked her. It's not clear whether that is going to be the body she'll be wearing the next time we see her, but nevertheless I really liked the actress. She reminded me of Gretchen Wilson a bit, only a bit paler. Still, kickass demon that is unapologetically evil. Love.

++ Possessed!Bobby actually scared me for the moment, especially with the cold words he uttered to Sam. Jim Beaver is awesome, 'nuff said. Of course, will he be permanently crippled? I hope not. Bobby is too badass to be crippled, however if he's really that badass he can kick some demon ass without the need to walk. Because he is just that awesome.

++ Mentioning of John's warehouses full of hunter paraphernalia. I wondered when they were going to return to those at some point, because otherwise they were just plot devices for season three. Glad they're still going with it.

++ "Life as an angel condom" <---- Dean Winchester, ladies and gentlemen. That will forever be the favorite line of this episode, trufax.

++ Zachariah is one sadistic evil bastard, and on the side of the angels which are now defying God which makes him even more dangerous than normal angels. And I am loving this portrayal of angels in the show, I really am. The division between Heaven that has erupted, the fact there are angels like Zachariah who are taking matters into their own hands (very His Dark Materials, if you will), and just. Yeah. With the snap of a finger he can break Sam's legs, with just looking at Dean he can give him stomach cancer. That is just WAY TOO FREAKING AND SCARY, and I LOVE IT. MOAR OF THIS PLZ (but not to the boys, they've suffered enough!)

++ CASTIEL BEING A BAMF, HELLS YEAH BITCHES!



++ "I carved them into your ribs" How Misha manages to deliver these lines with a straight face, I will never know. But it was awesome. Still wished there could have been a reunion hug (I was actually expected when he was approaching them before branding them that he would embrace Dean, but that was hopeful wishing -- hey, we got Wincest fanfic in canon now, so there's always possibilities!) And MYSTERIOUS DISAPPEARING IS MYSTERIOUS, CASTIEL STOP BEING A TEASE TO US! But he'll be featured more this season, AS A MOTHERFUCKING REGULAR! BOO-YEAH! So there's still more hope for those ~*~moments~*~ between him and Dean.

++ Last scene between Sam and Dean = D: *cries* But it needed to be said. Dean took the words right from my mouth and I'm glad they're going there.


Overall: One hell of an opener. There was so much crammed into the fifth season premiere I thought, from Chuck's the Zachariah to the reveal of Castiel not being dead and Bobby being possessed and in the hospital and Dean's destiny taking a whole different turn and just, yeah. I still loved the premiere don't get me wrong, but I think in terms of shocking revelations the season four premiere will probably be the best. Although I'm not entirely sure which Castiel entrance is better, the one in the S4 premiere or this one, when he's KICKING ASS AND SMITING SOME BITCHES. It's a tie I think, but the fact that Castiel won a motherfucking fight for once really tops everything at this moment, not gonna lie. But yeah, it's an awesome start to what I hope will be an even awesomer season. And if it's anything like last season, maybe better, bring it on Kripke. Me likey what I've seen thus far, keep it going. *g*


Oh, how I've missed this show. Next Thursday needs to be here like, right now. For reals.
 
 
Current Mood: satisfiedsatisfied
Current Music: Selena Gomez - Disappear
 
 
 
The Large Purple Weedtracy on September 12th, 2009 11:29 pm (UTC)
Despite the overwhelming majority of people who think it's God that resurrected Castiel, I gotta disagree. It just seems too easy, because of God did it, then where is his struggle this season? And if the show wants us to believe that, well, it's only the first episode, surely they'll throw some loops in there. I think Castiel worded it like that because it's what he wanted Zachariah to believe, because he was bluffing and obviously nervous about it. Plus, he needed Zachariah to heal Dean and Sam before he left, he was very clear on that.

I'm also thrilled with the Dean and Sam road they're taking, where they actually have to work at it to rebuild their trust and relationship. I was afraid things were going to be okay between them, which would have been an enormous cop-out. Anyway, when they do rebuild their relationship, hopefully it will be more balanced and less codependent.

Re: Michael's sword, heh, I really have no thoughts on that yet, mostly I'm just waiting to see what Castiel's take on it is. He ought to know something, right?
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on September 12th, 2009 11:40 pm (UTC)
I think Castiel worded it like that because it's what he wanted Zachariah to believe, because he was bluffing and obviously nervous about it. Plus, he needed Zachariah to heal Dean and Sam before he left, he was very clear on that.

Oh definitely, it was that "don't mess with my human" moment for him and he wanted to present himself in such a way that not only was he resurrected but convincing Zachariah that another big player has entered, and making him believe it just might as well be God. But yes, I also agree it would be too easy to make it that God intervened. I want to see the internal struggles between faith and loyalty, of belief and the morally right and wrong. The fact that in a normal situation many would say God was the cause of something, and I don't want that to be the factor of Supernatural. I want it to be about choices, of personal decisions, of sides going against each other, of faith and humanity and humility and all of that complex stuff.

But I also want it to be about something bigger, something larger than ourselves, that there is a natural way of the universe and perhaps it's God, or perhaps it's not. I want it to remain vague but left for theorizing much afterward based on personal interpretation. Because this isn't about God, this is about the characters and how they deal with these situations and the choices they make and where they stand. Definitely.

OMG I TOTES JUST RAMBLED RIGHT THAR. HAHAHA. META THINKING BRAIN IS ON HAYWIRE RIGHT NOW.

Sam and Dean rebuilding their relationship is refreshing to see, since so many times they've been just saying "forget it" or "sorry" about things, but now this is a time for them just to allow themselves the time to regather themselves and come at each other differently, but stronger than before. So looking forward to that.

Re: Michael's sword, heh, I really have no thoughts on that yet, mostly I'm just waiting to see what Castiel's take on it is. He ought to know something, right?

I really want Dean to ask Castiel about this, because it does seem like something he would know. I want there to be a meaningful conversation between them, mostly because this episode only had like about a moment of Dean/Castiel interaction time but still, it would be sweet if Castiel could give him something regarding Michael's sword and all of them. Or if Castiel will be like all "wtf is Zachariah telling you?" XD
(no subject) - thandie on September 12th, 2009 11:48 pm (UTC) (Expand)
thandie: jensen ponderingthandie on September 12th, 2009 11:42 pm (UTC)
this comment is tl;dr, sorry
Dude, there's no way I'm reading all this, as it's 1,30 AM right here and I've just got back home and need to sleep :(
I obviously read the part about Dean being Michael's vessel because that interests me too much even now :P and I think that was the best revelation ever, in all SPN's history. Just. Too. Cool.

"So far there is much talk about bloodlines and how Dean could be considered special in terms of being a chosen vessel"
I've had a pet theory about this, that might tie with John Winchester and the deal Mary made: what if Mary revealed her past and what she did to John (I don't know if that can be true, because it's been always implied that John never knew about Mary's old life as a hunter)?

That would explain a lot of things:
- John calling the YED to make the deal (I've always thought it was a fast decision, John knew about these deals but oddly he had not talked about them to Dean and Sam).
- Dean not being taken by the YED (he was the firstborn after all, should have been him!), because maybe John and Mary did something that would save him from that destiny, and the YED came back unexpectedly for the second child. And this would also explain why Mary got up from the bed, even if past!Dean had told her not to wake up that day: she wasn't expecting the YED to come for Sam (ok, I'm aware that's surely just a plot hole, but humor me).

So, I was saying, the fact John and Mary possibly did something to protect and/or shield Dean from the taking maybe made him an angel vessel? Or something? In this ep, after all, it's also shown that John apparently knew about the sword's prophecy...so maybe he knew something about angels too?

PS: sorry about the rambliness and the bad grammar, I'm really tired.
Renée: Castiel. Harp.rogueslayer452 on September 12th, 2009 11:57 pm (UTC)
Re: this comment is tl;dr, sorry
So, I was saying, the fact John and Mary possibly did something to protect and/or shield Dean from the taking maybe made him an angel vessel? Or something? In this ep, after all, it's also shown that John apparently knew about the sword's prophecy...so maybe he knew something about angels too?

That's an interesting theory, one that I hadn't considered before. I mean, it makes one wonder how much John actually knew not just about Sam but the entire endgame involving Lucifer and the Apocalypse, and perhaps that is why he never broke in Hell. Because if he did he knew the repercussions and he didn't want that. So it's not beyond the possibilities that perhaps Mary and/or John knew about the angels and the prophecy, perhaps not everything but clues to something larger than themselves. Though it's difficult because going from canon John seemed more interested in killing Azazel because him killing Mary, though piecing things together there might be more to it than we realized.

Or perhaps neither of them knew of what was going to happen, and everything just unraveled right here and now without either Mary or John understanding the larger scheme of things. I don't know, but that's a very fascinating theory you've constructed.

Awww, don't worry about it bb. ;) I've been reading so many theories and meta about all of what happened that I think my brain is overloading on so much at the moment, haha.
Re: this comment is tl;dr, sorry - thandie on September 13th, 2009 12:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: this comment is tl;dr, sorry - rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 01:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: this comment is tl;dr, sorry - noybusiness on September 13th, 2009 12:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: this comment is tl;dr, sorry - thandie on September 13th, 2009 12:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: this comment is tl;dr, sorry - noybusiness on September 13th, 2009 12:17 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: this comment is tl;dr, sorry - thandie on September 13th, 2009 12:23 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: this comment is tl;dr, sorry - noybusiness on September 13th, 2009 01:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: this comment is tl;dr, sorry - percysowner on September 13th, 2009 12:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: this comment is tl;dr, sorry - thandie on September 13th, 2009 08:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
forwardish: SPN Castiel prettyforwardish on September 12th, 2009 11:53 pm (UTC)
The "my friend Cas" bit was AWESOME!

CASTIEL BEING A TOTAL FUCKING BAMF! OMFG! SRSLY! w00000000000t!

ANGEL CONDOM!

YOU ARE MAKING ME SPEAK IN ONLY CAPS AGAIN!


I wrote a whole long meta as well, in my journal, about many of the same topics!


FANGIRL. WRITING WINCEST. IN THE SHOW. HOLY MOTHERFUCKING SHIT THAT IS JUST TOTALLY AWESOME A ON WHOLE DIFFERENT LEVEL!
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LOLARIOUS!
Renée: Castiel. Nngh.rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 01:23 am (UTC)
CAPSLOCKING MAKES ME WANNA CAPSLOCK TOO! :DDD

DEAN MAKING THAT FRIEND COMMENT ABOUT CASTIEL, CASTIEL SMITING AND BEING ALL BADASS AND SHIT, DEAN AND HIS SARCASTIC WIT, LUCIFER...THIS PREMIERE PACKED SO MUCH AWESOME I DON'T THINK MY MIND CAN STILL COMPREHEND IT ALL. \O/
noybusiness: Starbucknoybusiness on September 13th, 2009 12:13 am (UTC)
New Meg is awesome. Totally believed it was her. Complainers may be smoking something (or didn't like Old Meg).

It's all very His Dark Materials thematically. With obvious differences. I like His Dark Materials, so yeah.

As interesting as it might be to see MichaelDean for a moment, if only to see what Michael is like, I want Dean to keep resisting and keep human. Which I'm pretty sure he will.

The interesting thing is that Lucifer's speech might have worked on, say, Season Two Dean. It's pretty much what Dean said in "Houses of the Holy" and "Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester".

I wonder if the pun on Old Nick is intentional. I also want to see if Lucifer will be as convincing in Nick's body. The visual joke with the cartoon was great.

Dean has a "give 'em hell" attitude, alright. I want him to team up with Buffy even more now. This is one of the differences from Alec in Dark Angel. I love him, but he really didn't have convictions until the end of the show.
Renée: Dean/Castiel.rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 12:44 am (UTC)
I find a lot of people bitching about new!Meg are those that liked Nicki Aycox as Meg, but are going for more along the lines of "omg didn't Kripke learn from the new!Ruby disaster?" which is ridiculous. The difference is that Genevieve just couldn't mimic Katie's previous performance which is vital when you have a different actress portraying the same character. The actress playing Meg now was very convincing and I hope she sticks around. She was awesome.

And of course, there are fans that are willing to dismiss any new female that enters the show, as it's been known. But whatever, Meg rocks.

As interesting as it might be to see MichaelDean for a moment, if only to see what Michael is like, I want Dean to keep resisting and keep human. Which I'm pretty sure he will.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. As awesome as seeing the archangel would be, the show is about humanity and I would love to see Dean use his courage, his strength and bravery as a mere mortal to defeat Lucifer in the very end. Now that? Would be even more awesome than Michael/Dean scenario.

The interesting thing is that Lucifer's speech might have worked on, say, Season Two Dean. It's pretty much what Dean said in "Houses of the Holy" and "Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester".

Very true. Now it seems the tables have turned, Dean has a certain amount of faith from before (and the resistance of not wanting anything to do with the angel's plan for him), whereas Sam is now at loss of his own faith and perhaps his own identity.
(no subject) - noybusiness on September 13th, 2009 01:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 01:20 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - noybusiness on September 13th, 2009 01:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
a child dizzy on lemonadefalsebeginnings on September 13th, 2009 12:54 am (UTC)
OMG THE WINCEST FANFIC MADE ME CHOKE. I SHOULD NOT WATCH THIS SHOW WHILE EATING DINNER.

But this is not what Dean is devastated and disappointed in Sam the most. Throughout most of season four Sam had this chip on his shoulder, thinking he was the one to stop Lilith, thinking that Dean couldn't handle it, the lying and sneaking out at night with Ruby, practicing his demonic powers, drinking demon blood, choosing Ruby over Dean...all of that is too much to be forgiven automatically. Sam hurt Dean too much, that a simple apology isn't going to magically make everything he did disappear. It just does not happen.

So much word on this. I know a lot of people just want them to automatically get back together but that would make absolutely no sense given everything that's happened between them. I also really liked how Dean pointed out that he wasn't mad about the whole setting Lucifer free thing but more for the fact that Sam continually lied to him and the fact that Sam put Ruby above his own brother. I really think that this is a good step for some great character development for Dean (and Sam too). He didn't keep it all in this time, instead he actually said what he was feeling. I'm really looking forward to seeing Dean become more of his own person and to stop being so codependent on Sam. He needs to realize that his entire life doesn't necessarily revolve around his brother. Also, this whole Sam/Dean rift thing is most likely going to make way for some more Dean/Castiel bonding time and I am certainly not unhappy about that.
Renée: Dean/Castiel. Forgiven.rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 01:11 am (UTC)
I'm really looking forward to seeing Dean become more of his own person and to stop being so codependent on Sam. He needs to realize that his entire life doesn't necessarily revolve around his brother.

Yes, this. Absolutely. It's not that they should stop being brothers, but becoming his own person is something that Dean needs right now. There's nothing wrong with being there for your sibling, but to continue with their relationship in that same cycle as last season, thinking everything is okay when it really wasn't, is unhealthy for the both of them.

I also loved how Dean just admitted what he was feeling, not getting angry or upset, but talked to Sam. It was like he was unloading a lot of that weight, all that disappointment, right then and there. And the fact that he says that he knows that Sam is sorry, but it still doesn't change anything. He's acknowledging the situation between them and making it clear that things aren't going to be the same. That's a moment Dean needed, I think, and as heartbreaking as it is it worked.

Also, this whole Sam/Dean rift thing is most likely going to make way for some more Dean/Castiel bonding time and I am certainly not unhappy about that.

Hehe, I'm looking forward to more of that as well. The Sam/Dean fangirls might not of course, thinking that Castiel is taking the place of Sam -- ridiculous notion, I know, but whatever let them think inside their own delusional world.
noybusiness: Torynoybusiness on September 13th, 2009 01:37 am (UTC)
The rift between Dean and Sam will heal, but what it needs is time. Sam could easily make a mistake if he tried to win Dean's trust back with a grand gesture.

Say, do you watch the teaser for next episode at the end?
Renéerogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 01:58 am (UTC)
Agreed. They need this time apart.

I did, and I'm overly excited. I haven't seen any of the spoilery clips for the next episode that have appeared online though. Only the preview.
sanguisgodofstrife on September 13th, 2009 08:41 am (UTC)
Looks like we share a brain.

sanguisgodofstrife on September 13th, 2009 10:28 am (UTC)
Also, I'm hoping that god really is the one pulling the strings that led to the apocalypse and eventual paradise on earth.
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 11:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 11:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
bold_seer: noirishbold_seer on September 13th, 2009 10:45 am (UTC)
Everyone knows that I am deeply in love with the theological aspect the show has conjured up since last season, the introduction of angel mythology and religious lore mixed in with the show's own mythology and everything in connection to that. However, I would kinda love it if they kept the existence or perhaps the identity of God ambiguous. We've been introduced to the concept that even angels are doubting His existence and presence in Heaven, I think it would be more interesting if we have that large question mark in whether or not it was actually God that orchestrated these events of saving the Winchesters and Castiel, and leaving it all for speculation not only for the characters and their personal beliefs of what happened

I couldn't agree more with you! I love, love the religious lore, the angels, but God - that's a tricky subject. I do trust the writers, but I also think it would probably be wiser to just show the characters' speculations and beliefs, without any one true answer, "This is how it is."

I have lots of things to do, but would rather spend the day watching that gif. Mmmm.
Renée: Castiel. Nngh.rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 11:11 pm (UTC)
Exactly. Plus God isn't really much of a huge factor here, it's mainly about the characters and the choices they make, figuring out stuff as they go along and having their own beliefs and faith direct where they go towards next.

don't worry, I stare at that gif all the time, yum XD
nesdy on September 13th, 2009 04:49 pm (UTC)
the part of the prophecy of "the righteous man who starts it, is the only one who can finish it" seems to mean that it is Dean and Dean alone that has to defeat Lucifer, with or without divine intervention. I'm convinced of this too. Michael is not "the righteous man who started it", even if that man is being ridden by him.

Poor Chuck, I hope they don't kill him off. He's awesome. He can't get killed off, he's got an archangel on his shoulder, watching that he finishes the Winchester Gospel *lol*

and whether the murder of his wife and child was accidental or intentional. I hadn't even considered this, but if the murder was intentional, it would be so much more interesting! I don't see it in terms of destiny, though, but more in terms of "the demons/angels involved in rising Lucifer found out he was a perfect vessel and killed his family so that he would be desperate enough to let Lucifer ride him"

Castiel being a badass is one of my fav. things ever ♥♥♥♥
Renée: SPN. Crossroads Demon.rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 09:19 pm (UTC)
It's too soon to tell, being the first episode of the season and all, so there may be twists and turns concerning the whole Michael deal. But it seems too easily settled if Michael were to be Dean to defeat Lucifer, again. It feels more natural that Dean would have to finish this himself, not just based upon prophecy but also for humanity and for himself as well.

He can't get killed off, he's got an archangel on his shoulder, watching that he finishes the Winchester Gospel *lol*

LOL, very true. But you never know with Kripke and what he has in store.

I don't see it in terms of destiny, though, but more in terms of "the demons/angels involved in rising Lucifer found out he was a perfect vessel and killed his family so that he would be desperate enough to let Lucifer ride him"

Possibly. But it's interesting because there seems to be a connection with bloodlines or having specific human vessels durable enough to contain celestial beings. The inevitable destiny/fate thing is often what the show represents, but we'll have to see how this all pans out. They obviously wouldn't introduce us to this Nick character if his background didn't hold some sort of significance later on.

Castiel being badass is never not an awesome thing to see. A perfect entrance into the season for him! \O/
inkstaind_dream: vampire minainkstaind_dream on September 13th, 2009 10:57 pm (UTC)
What the- *looks around* you're...you're like a Supernatural scholar or something. Where were you when I was working on my oral presentation and research paper on Supernatural for my King Arthur class?!?

I would've wowed them with your insight lol

I love Sam, I do, but I was thinking the same thing as you: Sam messed up last season and it cannot be fixed with a simple 'I'm sorry' no matter how much he means it. His apology may be genuine but he hurt Dean to much to be forgiven right away. They both need time to repair the damage that has been done to their brotherly bond.

And you have a point with the whole Lucifer/Sam angle.

I never thought of Lucifer appealing to Sam because of rejection issues. Man, you are good.
Renée: Castiel. Love.rogueslayer452 on September 14th, 2009 05:09 am (UTC)
HEE! ♥ Hardly a scholar, but I really do enjoy analyzing a lot of my shows sometimes (perhaps a bit too much) especially when writing reviews/meta. But, thank you for the compliment! You're making me kinda blush right now. :)

It's always funny when I see people thinking that anyone that says anything bad about Sam is a Sam-hater, which isn't the case at all. I love all the Winchesters but you have to admit when they make mistakes and are in the wrong, and Sam was definitely going in the wrong direction last season (although that wrong direction was the kind of direction I wanted him to go in, but overall it hurts because it hurt his relationship with his brother). He now has to work to gain his brother's trust back and repair what has been broken between them.

I never thought of Lucifer appealing to Sam because of rejection issues. Man, you are good.

Again, with the blushing. *g* But yeah, I heard that they may be adding more to Lucifer to make him appear a bit sympathetic (have no clue to what extent though), and from the premiere he seems to be playing that card really well. Not sure if it's manipulation or not, which it probably is, though the similarities of what Sam has been going through and in finding himself is certainly going to be on Lucifer's radar. And he did set him free, after all....
noybusiness: Leoben/Anders/Starbuck threesomenoybusiness on September 13th, 2009 11:15 pm (UTC)
Of course I doubt that Castiel would ever join Lucifer, seeing as he'll be beside Dean the entire time. Nevertheless, I'm hoping for a Lucifer versus Castiel showdown in the future.

Would be good. And they are family.
Renée: Castiel. Bookish.rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 11:38 pm (UTC)
Another thing the show represents so clearly even in its own mythology, the sense of familial connection. The angels share a kindred such as Sam and Dean do, and even the demons have that as well (Azazel and his "children").
kitchensexslave: angelic castielkitchensexslave on September 13th, 2009 11:32 pm (UTC)
I pretty much just want to quote your whole thing back at you and say OMG I AGREE.

Useless comment is useless, but I really enjoyed reading! <3
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on September 13th, 2009 11:40 pm (UTC)
Awww, well thank you so much. ♥ I kinda got overexcited with the premiere, so much stuff is happening and CASTIEL IS BACK and OMG LUCIFER and OH BOYS! And just, yeah.

I'm just really happy the show is back, and now I can do more of these reviews and metas. \o/
noybusiness: Leoben/Anders/Starbuck threesomenoybusiness on September 14th, 2009 02:06 am (UTC)
Oh, you may not have heard. We know what the DVD menu screens for The Plan look like now: http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Battlestar-Galactica-The-Plan/12659

I just wonder how they got those without more substantial spoilers.
Renée: Cylons. By your command!rogueslayer452 on September 14th, 2009 05:12 am (UTC)
That looks uber awesome. I still love the coverart, mainly due to Six and the Centurion being next to each other like BFFs on the cover and with Cavil among dead bodies. Also, commentary with Edward James Olmos and Jane Espenson? I am so looking forward to getting this DVD now. :D
(no subject) - noybusiness on September 14th, 2009 09:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
jello: Dean n Casjelost on September 18th, 2009 12:24 am (UTC)
[damn bbcode!!]

Woohoo for me finally getting a chance to read this before the next episode! XD

Interesting point about Dean not being one of the special people able to hear angels, especially since both Jimmy and Nick were able to hear and understand. (side note: how is it that Lucifer was able to take a human form to appear to Nick but Castiel couldn't? unless it was a dream!) And how did it come to be that the righteous man that broke the first seal is also the Sword of Michael? Dean had to be dead to begin the domino-effect of raising Lucifer, but definitely has to be alive to kill him. It sounds like Heaven was banking on the assumption that the angels would be able to spring Dean from Hell.

If John had broke in Hell, would the angels gone after him and he would've been the one chosen to be Michael's vessel? Or had it really been Dean the entire time?

Good question. With Sam and Nick, it seemed to be very predestined. But Castiel chose Jimmy kind of on the fly, it seems, so anything's possible. Then again, if saying Dean is the embodiment of Michael's sword holds any literal weight at all, it sounds like it should've been him all along. Perhaps the demons' original plan with John backfired, Dean died, the demons rejoiced in the perfection of these turn of events, and decided to stick it to the angels by using their chosen warrior against them.

Agreed that the destruction of Lucifer has to be entirely under Dean's power. If Michael is able to take any credit at all, it will be failure on Kripke's part. Trust in Kripke! <3

Castiel's resurrection and the transportation of Sam and Dean to the plane are still pretty up in the air for me. While I was watching the episode, I had assumed it had been something demonic -- maybe even Lucifer himself -- that had intervened. I was shortly thereafter corrected to see that it was God, but I'm still a little iffy. I still need to watch this episode a second time to be sure.

I don't think God will be cast, to be honest; the mystery is so much better this way, where God is purely metaphysical.

I'm excited about Lucifer's storyline and how sympathetic he'll actually be. Though, just how sympathetic is too much? What'll happen at the final showdown, if we're all rooting for both sides?

Regarding Lucifer tempting Sam, I honestly couldn't see it happening. Sam's learned his lesson something fierce, and any more separation between Sam and Dean very well may kill them both. Although, I have to admit that Sam's still got the anger streak in him; then again, he's got nothing left to fight for except his relationship with his brother, and I think he's going to stick by Dean no matter what. Just my predictions though!

Castiel, however! I could see him trying to play both sides. That could be wicked awesome.

I'm actually incredibly relieved they are not just kissing and making up after all that's happened.

Me too! If Sam and Dean had simply gone back to the way things used to be, it'd be like none of this had ever happened -- and that's just a cop-out. Our boys have changed a lot in the past four years, and there's no going back, especially after the way Sam had treated Dean throughout season 4, even up to the day before. People don't bounce back from being disowned as a brother in less than 24 hours. Boys need some space.

I'm looking forward to more of the brotherly angst, because what is Supernatural without the angst? Come one now.

Hear, hear!

NEW TITLE CARD! NEW TITLE CARD! LOVE IT, HOLY SHIT!

THERE IS NO OTHER SHOW DURING WHICH I SQUEE AT THE TITLE CARD.

LMAO fanfiction by the writers about fandom! This is brilliant.

Meg is unapologetically kickass, trufax. I'm glad to see her back!

Bobby! ;-;

The division between Heaven that has erupted, the fact there are angels like Zachariah who are taking matters into their own hands (very His Dark Materials, if you will)

OMG yes! His Dark Materials completely fits here. I wonder if there's really inspiration here?

CASTIEL!!!!!!! ('nuff said)

I am so incredibly psyched for tonight's episode now!!! <3 Thanks for meta-ing, bb!! <333