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28 November 2009 @ 01:52 pm
SPN: "Abandon All Hope" Episode Review + Meta  
So, I finally wrote up my full length review/meta for this glorious episode. One of the upsides to having a hiatus is that I can have time to really write out an episode review without feeling the pressure of getting it done before the next episode, which is a challenge for me with all my fandoms. I've had time to read other people's reviews and metas and really just write this out fully, and trust me, I do have some things to say about this episode. Particularly with certain characters and what happened to them.


Supernatural 5.10 "Abandon All Hope"

It attempts to use the Colt (given to them willingly by the demon Crowley) against Lucifer in hopes to end the rising of the Apocalypse, the Winchesters, the Harvelle's and Castiel enter an abandoned town where supposedly Lucifer has resided in, only to be sprung by surprise as Lucifer cleverly traps Castiel and the demon meg unleashes dozens of hellhounds upon the rest of the gang, fatally injuring Jo and causing them to go into hiding while Lucifer prepares himself to rise Death, one of the Four Horsemen. To buy them time to get out and stop Lucifer for good, Jo makes her final decision in sacrificing herself, along with her mother, to allow Sam and Dean to get away. Unfortunately for them, the plan doesn't go as they thought and get out just in the nick of time before Death emerges.

It's the Battlestar Galactica episode of the season. This episode brings on just how real this shit has gotten, bringing us the pain and the sadness and the angst in very powerful waves, and it proves that this episode truly was the shining last moments of Jo and Ellen Harvelle. Perhaps the saddest, most depressing episodes to date ever in SPN history, no doubt about it.


Tribute to Jo and Ellen Harvelle: The Best Badass Female Characters on Supernatural

This goes without saying that the Harvelle women were quite amazing in this episode, and it really was their episode through-and-through. Samantha Ferris and Alona Tal really shined in their roles this episode; each scene with them had so much raw and powerful emotion, from beginning to the end. Such messages about love and family, of sacrifice of the greater good and staying with your loved ones no matter what, it really gave us a chance to see a hunter family besides the Winchesters who will do anything in the name of those they loved. And they both went out heroically despite the outcome of the situation, and it really was so depressing and sad but beautiful at the same time.

But of course, this has created some drama in fandom because, oh noes, the show has killed two female characters, the sexist/misogynistic issues has arisen once again, and blah blah blah.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of these old arguments being brought up by fandom. I will say this once: this has nothing to do with gender.

What happened to the Harvelles has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are female in a predominantly male-oriented show, their deaths weren't because Kripke and the writers immediately wanted two supporting female roles that they resurrected since season two to be killed off. Jo and Ellen's deaths were necessary to the story because it shows us the reality of this war. War, in general, has casualties and sometimes those casualties are of people whom we care about, and sometimes even if such sacrifices are for the greater cause it can lead to a disappointing outcome, which is precisely what happened here. The Harvelle's were in a difficult position, they all were. Dean tried to hold it together, but Jo had a realistic mindset and understood her fate and realized she could do something productive. Ellen stood by her daughter's side. It might have been pointless after everything they tried to do, but failed to accomplish, but at the heart of it all it was a brave and courageous move which defines their characters more than anything else in the entire series, for sure.

I think that is why I adored their death scenes. Not because I wanted them to die, because I didn't, but it's how it was presented to us. Normally when secondary characters wind up dying it's usually a "now you see them...now you don't" kind of situation, but not here. They actually spent time drawing out their deaths, which adds more to the emotional impact upon realizing that, yes, they are going to die. It was like a punch in the gut even before Ellen pushed that button. It hurt. It was devastating and depressing as fucking hell, especially with the goodbyes and seeing that Ellen was going to stay with Jo, finishing the job.

And you know what? That's amazing storytelling right there. Yes, their deaths didn't accomplish anything good in the end, other than allowing the boys to escape. But it gave us the reality of the situation they're in. It gave us a chance to see precisely how high the stakes have risen in this war. Which is what I'm loving about this season. We've seen a devastating possible future, Bobby is stuck dealing with the reality of being in a wheelchair, unable to do the things he used to do, and we see the sacrificial love between mother and daughter in the grander scheme of things, even if it didn't pay off in the end as they'd hoped. This season is bringing the harsh realities of what they're dealing with. Not everything is going to have a happy ending, the boys cannot save everyone, not even those they consider family. This is the price of war, the price of the Apocalypse, and it's hit them harder than they ever expected. And this is exactly what we needed to see.

I loved it. I loved how despite having them only in two episodes this season, their second being their last, it showed a great deal of character development between the two Harvelle women. Jo especially, since the major complaints from season two were that she had lacked in developing much of any character whatsoever (which I disagree, since they had very limited episodes to really grow and get that character development and it was a mistake on the writer's part due to the roadhouse storyline, but I digress). Here we see a very different Jo Harvelle. She's grown up, she's matured, and I was so happy that she refused Dean's "last night on Earth" speech which, yes, is old and tired and I swore if they'd pulled that bullshit one more time I would scream and have a fit at Kripke. She has self-respect, she has her dignity and that's what I loved about her. She's gotten over her schoolgirl crush on Dean and focused her energy elsewhere, which I liked seeing. She also understood the reality of their situation and thought rationally, and took control of her own fate without cheating it. We also see her relationship with her mother which, from season two was on the fritz a little bit, but having her say to Ellen that she wanted to be treated like an adult based on this very decision? And Ellen's reaction to that, plus staying with her daughter? Tears, man, tears rolling down my face right there. The fact that Ellen did this, it really places their sacrificial love of family right there in front of us. And despite having them die, they died together, as a family. It's absolutely fucking sad, but beautifully done that I can't hate on it.

So with all the noise about females being killed off again on the show, first I can understand the frustrations because this show doesn't do that well with female characters at times, but I would kindly ask those with extreme PC feminist views to put away those glasses for a moment and look at what occurred in this episode in terms of storytelling. It's depressing of course, and we're meant to be sad about it and not like their deaths. But with what is happening in the SPNverse, it's absolutely necessary. I'm happy with how they dealt with it, how their deaths were handled and they handled it with such respect to the characters that seriously, it's just brilliant.

Kripke, you magnificent bastard, thank you for creating such an amazing and perhaps the most saddest moments in the history Supernatural. It felt like a fucking punch in the gut, and like my heart was ripped out from my chest and stomped on repeatedly. In memory of Ellen and Joanna Beth Harvelle, you two lovely ladies will forever be missed and we, the fans, commend you for your utter heroic acts of bravery and all you've contributed to the show. ♥


Castiel and Lucifer: Two Brothers On Different Sides Of The War

Perhaps the most anticipated confrontation, and although we didn't get much of an actual fight between the two, which is something I'm definitely waiting for, I was very happy to not only see Lucifer again but to also have him and Castiel in the same scene together. It's been a long time coming, in fact, and I absolutely loved how it was handled too. With Lucifer cleverly trapping Castiel, obviously realizing that a fellow brother has been traveling with the Winchesters and knew that somehow he would come and investigate, and having just a casual conversation with him (and my favorite part being his question about riding in a car, which I still lol at because it's just so random). The entire scene was brilliantly done, with the lighting of the firelight and the play on shadows and just, ugh, everything. I am in love with their scenes together, and all of Castiel's scenes in general.

But what I found most interesting was how Castiel reacted upon seeing Lucifer. I don't think he anticipated this would be how his meeting with him would turn out, trapped in the circle of holy fire, verbally interrogated by a fallen brother. He seemed very intimidated, scared but defensive at the same time. Defending the Winchesters, showing where his true loyalties lie despite what Lucifer was telling him. It was endearing, but also scary, because we didn't know what Lucifer had intended for our precious angel.

Of course one of Lucifer's skills is manipulation, and although he's more reassuring that he's in the right, since he absolutely believes he truly is and that he's been wronged by God and his brothers in Heaven, what makes Lucifer so terrifying is how he truly does believe that he and Castiel are on the same side. It's the same with him trying to convince Sam later on that he understands how he feels, the same with him convincing his substitute vessel, Nick, that he understands that same feeling. Lucifer cleverly plays on such vulnerabilities of those around him, making those connections in hopes of gaining more followers, more to see his side. When he tells Castiel that even if he is defeated, Heaven's forces will come after him next because he rebelled.

But they are not the same. Lucifer rebelled because he disliked humanity and refused to surrender his love for God for humankind, whereas Castiel rebelled for humanity, siding with Dean Winchester and hopes that humanity does win this war. Castiel favors humanity, loves them and considers them works of art, something that Lucifer never could understand because of his dislike of humans. The only thing I can see in connection is their love for God, but Lucifer's is tainted in wanting approval from his Father (which is very Cavil of him), and Castiel is in the search for their Father because he truly has faith and belief that God still is around, and wants to prove it to his disbelieving brothers.

I'm happy that Castiel didn't listen to Lucifer (take that naysayers!) It was a lingering fear that something might change his mind, but I knew that Castiel would never side with Lucifer, who he absolutely abhors because of all he represents. It's clear where Castiel's loyalties lie, and if I hear ONE MORE PERSON try to say that Castiel is untrustworthy despite all evidence backing up how much he loves/cares for the Winchesters and which side he's fighting for, I will cut a bitch. Seriously.

I do want more Lucifer and Castiel confrontations in the future, because I think there's something more that Lucifer wants to tell, or show, Castiel. I think he knew that Castiel would find a way to escape his trap, otherwise he would have kept a closer eye on his brother. But I am over the moon with what we got in this episode.

Really, Misha and Marksha (LOL I WILL NEVER STOP THINKING OF HIM AS THAT! FANDOM HAS RUINED ME!) have amazing onscreen chemistry. I'm aching for more, since I wanted the subject of whether or not Lucifer did, indeed, bring him back but that didn't pop up. Hopefully next time.


Symbolism: Uncanny Parallels To "The End"

I'm taking this from what alexwhitman25 mentioned earlier during my reaction post to the episode about the uncanny connections to 5.04 "The End" in this episode, and seeing what she says I have to say she is absolutely right.

From Castiel becoming familiar with drinking alcoholic drinks to Lucifer mentioning Sam accepting his role as a vessel in Michigan, which he not only knows but predicts as though it's a known fact embedded in prophecy, but I think the most poignant is the photograph which Bobby takes of everyone earlier in the episode. It's totally parallel to the photograph we saw in "The End", with Bobby and Castiel carrying guns with other hunters in the picture. Not only is it the same kind of camera that took those pictures, but it's the same mood from both; neither one of those photographs is anyone smiling or having a happy expression of their faces. It's all grim and morose, representing an ominous prediction of future events. It's just so uncanny that they would have the future episode showing such events of characters and their fates, and then have this episode which foreshadows the fates of Ellen and Jo.

There's also the parallels to Dean's growing role in leadership, his ability to take charge of the situation despite it being too much for him to handle, and then seeing those he loved getting killed in the middle of this war. Out of sacrifice surely, but still. We also see the reversal of roles between Sam and Dean in this episode as well. There's so much given here that parallel "The End" that I almost fear what might come in the future, and if that future we saw was truly a possible one that could happen and not one that Zachariah fabricated.

Obviously, "The End" takes place five years in the future and anything could have happened between those five years which alter the lives and attitudes of characters, and this certainly may be the last season of the show so hopefully they can avert such events from happening. But could things be unavoidable? Could Sam say "yes" to Lucifer? Are the fates already predestined that no matter how many loopholes the Winchesters find, it will lead to the same outcome?

With this episode it brought on not only the devastation and angst of what happened, but also more worries and fears of what might happen in the episodes to come. I'm just so excited yet scared of what is going to happen, but I'm sure that Kripke has something clever up his sleeve.


Memorable Moments of the Episode:

++ The Harvelles: Jo and Ellen, they will forever be remembered on the show. Again, I think this is the most saddest character departure ever in the history of this show, without a doubt. Although they were brought back only for two episodes there was significant character development and growth between the two, and their relationships with the others and this episode truly showed their strengths and how important they were to everyone. I'm also glad that there was some screentime with them and Castiel, too. Having him bond slightly with other human beings, other hunters besides the Winchesters, was nice to see. Especially since the Harvelles are more like family to them than anything else.

++ Speaking of, Castiel and Ellen having their drinking game = epic win. "I think I'm starting to feel something" was totally a shoutout to Legolas from Lord of the Rings, and I'm loling at that so much. So apparently, angels have high tolerance to alcohol, I take it. Oh, Castiel could drink anyone under the table. Dean would be so proud. XD

++ I have to say that although I liked the idea of Dean/Jo from before, the show has pretty much set them up at being more brother-sister than anything else. Even though I wouldn't have minded if they had hooked up, I'm not disappointed that they didn't. Dean's goodbye kiss to her on the forehead and then on the lips I didn't see anything more than that: it was a goodbye kiss, in a familial and a friendship kind of way, nothing more.

++ MARK SHEPPARD AS CROWLEY = MAJOR MOTHERFUCKING WIN BBS! FOR REALS! IT'S ROMO LAMPKIN! IT'S BADGER, Y'ALL! Okay, seriously, you can tell I'm happy that Mark Sheppard was featured on Supernatural. That man is everywhere, like for reals. Perfect casting, just perfect with everything he did in this role. I really, really really want to see him as Crowley again, because although he did an amazing job it was too short of his appearance on the show. WE NEED MOAR CROWLEY, PLZ KTHX. More Crowley, more Gabriel and more Raphael, please show.

++ MALE/MALE KISSING! THE FIRST SAME-SEX KISS ON THE SHOW EVER! \O/ Kudos for the show for going in that direction, something they didn't have the guts to do before, even though it's strictly of the deal-making variety, it's a great step up. now can we has some Dean/Castiel smooching pretty please show? it's already fucking canon just make them kiss, dammit

++ Voyeur!Castiel + "it's, going...down" = much hilarity. lololol

++ UM WE NEED MORE OF CASTIEL'S PERSPECTIVE SHOWN ON THE SHOW, PLZ. Seriously, I was majorly impressed with this decision of showing what Castiel sees through his eyes, which also shows us what angels see and what humans cannot. The scene with the Reapers was so chilling and haunting (and anyone else expecting to see Tessa amongst them? I sure was). I also loved seeing the Enochian symbols on Crowley's home in the way that Castiel would sense them, which makes me think he can also see them on Sam and Dean's chests so vividly which, is kinda awkward when you think about it, lol. I also LOVED seeing how Castiel can disappear/reappear in different locations. Awesome stuff.

++ MARKSHA!!!!! :DDDDDD He was truly terrifying in this episode. Although I still kinda do see Jonathan Rhys Meyers as Lucifer in my head (and thanks to jelost, I now see Callum Keith Rennie as Lucifer too, dammit!), Marksha did an amazing job here. We need more Lucifer in this season, for reals.

++ "Umm...slow. And confining." "What a peculiar thing, you are." THIS CONVERSATION IS MADE OF LULZ BUT AWESOMENESS. CASTIEL FINDS CARS SLOW (which is you know, true, and makes sense since we see precisely how angels can go from one place to another without the need of any vehicle to slow them down) ALSO LOL @ LUCIFER'S CURIOSITY AND HIS REACTION IS PRICELESS!

++ The lighting, the play on shadows and the firelight, just everything about the cinematography in this episode was love. ♥

++ DEATH!!! :DDDDD I know, I know, we didn't see Death in physical form, but I don't care. The fact that we've revisited the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse makes me utterly giddy, and that Lucifer performed the ritual himself to raise Death makes it even more epic. He did the dirty work, which idk if that's even more awesome than having lackeys do it for him.

++ I'm...kinda liking new!Meg. I mean, Nicki Aycox will always be the best Meg, but this new actress is just so great. She has the mannerisms and sarcasm down, something that Genevieve could never achieve when becoming new!Ruby.

++ Confused: Meg said that Lucifer is her father, but isn't that kind of contradictory since Azazel was her father as mentioned in the earlier seasons? Or was this just a general Father of creation, like God being our Father because he created humankind? But what was the meaning of Azazel mentioning that Meg was his daughter from before?

++ The fact that Jo pulled a Kendra Shaw, getting injured and staying behind to manually set off a bomb to kill the enemy, makes me respect her more than I ever did. That's some hardcore shit right there, rigging a bomb. I just, that's deep stuff and the fact that the show went there makes me appreciate this season even more. Again, this makes me love their storytelling this season in certain parts.

++ CASTIEL AND HIS TRICKSEY WAYS! ♥ The mislead of him kissing Meg (which really, in context it doesn't make any logical sense why he ever would, but the way it was filmed made you think it would happen even though you knew it would never in a million years) and then USING HER AS A BRIDGE TO GET OUT OF THE FIRE = MAJOR WIN! \O/ \O/ Not only is he a BAMF, but he's one resourceful BAMF. :DDD

(I read someone's reaction that they were upset by the way Castiel treated Meg, because of the whole male mistreating a female which, wtf?!? MEG = BAD GUY YOU FUCKERS! SHE DESERVED TO BE A BRIDGE ON THE FIRE, CALL ME SADISTIC BUT THAT WAS AWESOME SHIT AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THAN GTFO)

++ Question: This is something that has been brought up, about Castiel using his telekinetic angelical powers to unscrew the pipes in order to get out (yay callback to "On The Head Of A Pin"!), does that mean that any angel could manipulate things around them to get out? Because Castiel is limited in his powers, so that would mean that archangels like Raphael and Gabriel could have done the same thing, even more so because they're more powerful than the average angel. Or was kinda something that was like "oh hay look, this is cool shit, let's have Castiel be all badass despite being slightly powerless"? Either way, it was cool, but I hope there's something explanation about that somewhere.

++ BTW, I don't think that Castiel is losing his abilities. He said before that there are some things he's limited to, and we haven't seen him gank any demons since he came back. So I think that him exorcising/killing demons is another one of those drawbacks alongside the lacking of healing others. Just so y'all know my opinion on this, we're finally seeing his limitations.

++ "Hello Death" = quote for the entire season, amirite? Goes along with the "O Death" musical promo doesn't it? I love it.

++ Ben Edlund, ILU so fucking hard. ♥ We need more episodes like this, please.


Overall: Like I mentioned, I consider this the Battlestar Galactica of the season, because this is precisely how BSG is on a daily basis with the doom and gloom, the dark and depressing ominous feeling looming over everything and everyone with that lingering feeling of hope over the horizon, but there is no happy ending. People have died for pointless reasons even if it had been out of heroic sacrifice for the greater good, and nothing had been accomplished. There was a confrontation with the enemy, so much amazing chemistry and acting by everyone, Ellen broke my heart, Jo broke my heart, I feared for Castiel, I was intimidated by Lucifer, I wanted to Colt to kill him even though it would have been too good to have been true, and just yeah. Everything about this episode was precisely how I pictured this season going. Doom and gloom and the end hovering over them, realizing that they really need to step it up and that everything is unpredictable. This is war, shit just got real for them.

Just so much love for this episode, I consider this the best out of the season yet. Between this, "The End" and "Free To Be You And Me", I fucking am in love with this episode like, whoa. ♥


There seems to be a series of depressing episodes before the hiatus hit. I heard about what happened on Criminal Minds and now this episode, it feels like Battlestar Galactica all over again. Not that I'm complaining, some of the most amazing stuff happens when there's tons of dark shit occurring and aching angst with characters. But this episode....it was emotionally draining, like really emotionally draining. It was great, but still. It makes me wish there could have been a Thanksgiving/Christmas episode of Supernatural this season or something.

But it doesn't matter, because I love this show even if it hurts. Because like what Joss Whedon and Ron D Moore and David Eick bring us, Kripke hurts us so good. And even if we may hate it, we know we love it.
 
 
Current Mood: thoughtfulthoughtful
Current Music: Bear McCreary - Gaeta's Lament (Instrumental)
 
 
 
mummyluvr314: [SPN] *boop*mummyluvr314 on November 29th, 2009 12:35 am (UTC)
Here from spn_heavymeta
*sneaks in to ramble a bit about aweseomeness*

I agree about, like, all of this. Did you also notice that Dean was wearing a green overshirt like future!Dean? I thought it was a shoutout to 3.16 at the table-talk, but when I got to thinking about it....

As for the Holy Ring of Fire, I've heard a lot of people wonder about how Cas was able to manipulate the bolts. Wasn't Raphael also able to manipulate outside forces? I mean, he shattered the windows to let the rain in (I also assume he started the storm). And I just assumed that Gabe wasn't too threatened by the Winchesters (he's known them for three years, after all) and just didn't want to waste his energy.

I've also been laughing about the way that SPN handled that kiss (the m/m one, not Dean/Jo). Remember how much the CW pimped the Gossip Girl gay kiss? There were spoilers everywhere and everyone was freaking out, and Kripke just kind of... slips it in there. No fanfare. No fuss. Surprise! I'm not even sure why the comparison between the two binged my radar (or which radar it even was), but it did.

So, yeah... *sneaks away*
Renée: Castiel. Bookish.rogueslayer452 on November 29th, 2009 01:09 am (UTC)
Re: Here from spn_heavymeta
Yeah, there's definitely some similarities they placed into this episode to match up with "The End", it's all in the details if you look close enough. It's uncanny and kinda scary what they're implying here, if destiny truly cannot be averted, at least in some cases.

Wasn't Raphael also able to manipulate outside forces? I mean, he shattered the windows to let the rain in (I also assume he started the storm). And I just assumed that Gabe wasn't too threatened by the Winchesters (he's known them for three years, after all) and just didn't want to waste his energy.

That's what I'm starting to think as well. The Holy Ring of Fire is generally meant to trap an angel so they can't enter or exit, but it doesn't necessarily mean they can't manipulate things about them. It's a matter of getting out that's the main issue if an angel does get trapped inside of one. It just depends on what is around them and what they can use to manipulate things to get out from their predicament.

Remember how much the CW pimped the Gossip Girl gay kiss? There were spoilers everywhere and everyone was freaking out, and Kripke just kind of... slips it in there. No fanfare. No fuss. Surprise!

LOL! That's something I rather find amusing, because most things that are overhyped (omg a gay kiss between two guys?!) are mostly disappointing because there's so much noise about it that when it happens it's like, eh, whatever. But when something surprising happens, like this particular kiss between Crowley and the guy he was making a deal with, it makes everyone do a double take. The fact that Supernatural just slipped it in there so nonchalantly makes me really appreciate their subtly, because it wasn't a huge deal. Yet it kinda is, at least to us fans.
(Anonymous) on November 29th, 2009 12:58 am (UTC)
MidnightHeir iz too lazy to log in
Raphael did indeed start the storm or at least bring about crashing windows - he knocked out the Eastern seaboard before/just after the circle got lit up. And the sudden break in weather certainly echoes his actions. It would take some time but I can see/imagine Raph eventually destroying the building sufficiently to douse that fire out.

Gabriel - hadn't really looked around his surroundings all that much. It's a lot more hinky and needs more handwaving than the above, but generally speaking he was watching the Winchesters. Regardless he did show power usage by taking the boys out of the tv show and by bringing back Castiel. So presumably if he'd spotted the sprinkler system or seen the fire alarm he'd have kicked it off. Eventually. Also, being Gabriel ... I can't imagine there being a whole lotta things that can really, truly do you harm.

Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on November 29th, 2009 02:51 am (UTC)
Re: MidnightHeir iz too lazy to log in
It's really more about them being restricted of going anywhere than not being able to use whatever powers/abilities they may have, since we've seen Gabriel and Raphael and now Castiel being able to manipulate things and use their powers outside of the circle. But they just can't leave said circle of fire, pretty much a "time out" on the physical plane.
Tracy: Dean/Cas Fix Youalexwhitman25 on November 29th, 2009 01:13 am (UTC)
I so agree with you on the sexist/misogynistic stuff. Look, this show rarely lets anyone have any happiness/good times whether it be female or male characters. Let's look at some of the more majo/recurring female characters: Mary, Jess, Meg, Ruby, Bela, Tessa, Jo, Ellen? Ruby and Bela were the evil so they had to die, duh. :P (Even if I loved, loved OR!Recipe Ruby) Mary died trying to protect her family, so did John. Ash was taken out by demons. So was Hendrickson, who I wanted to be a badass hunter. So did Special!Andy and Insta!Brother Adam and countless others. Recurring characters surviving in this verse is a scarce, scarce thing. And it's not like the male characters go out as Big Damn Heroes and the females are taken out as Damsels in Distress. Jo and Ellen couldn't have gotten a bigger Big Damn Hero exit than what they got. Bela and Ruby were the evil so they got hellhounds and ganked in the stomach respectively and hey that's cool. The YED got shot down and Gordon got turned into a vamp and beheaded! I think they are an equal opportunity "death to you and a plague on your house!" all show.

I love, loved Ellen and thought she was the most consistent, badass female character the show ever did. But I'm totally cool with how she went out, she went out fighting and as a hero. Plus I kinda love that they went out for basically nothing and the big mission failed in the end. This is war, bitches. That's how it goes sometimes. The good guys don't always win and you lose soldiers along the way.

WHEE I got a shoutout!

Crowley simply MUST come back. (Even if Kripke is really, really lifting from Good Omens and not just paying homage to it) Make use of these awesome characters plz Kripke! More badass apocalypse related characters, less humor and fourth wall episodes plz.

I was kinda diappointed that we got no Tessa. Cause I love her to pieces. I would even let her makeout with Dean.

I like new Meg too. She's doing great getting some of Nicki's spunk and mannerisms in there.

I think Meg considers Lucifer to be her father in the way that people consider God to be their father maybe?

Yeah...I'm still curious myself about Cas using his powers while in the Ring of Fire.

I still really wish the episode would have ended with Luci's "Oh hello, Death" but I was still happy with the episode.
Renée: Dean/Castiel. OTP.rogueslayer452 on November 29th, 2009 02:13 am (UTC)
Exactly, and you're so right about the majority of the females featured in this show going out with a big bang instead of being damsels in distress. Ellen and Jo's death scene was definitely their Big Damn Hero moment, even if it was so fucking devastating they went out with a bang, just as they should because they were both kickass women who contributed so much. It would have been a shame if their deaths didn't have some sort of heroic impact, and I'm glad that this episode was more of a dedication to them than anything else. As it should have been. Both men and women are caught in the crossfire in this show, no one is safe.

I don't go into my fandoms looking for political correctness and nitpicking about certain things. I watch for the entertainment and for the story being told. That's it. Unless something is deliberately being told in an offensive manner, I like to enjoy my show instead of ruining the fun out of it. I mean, I can not like how certain characters are written or how they are presented, but I am in no way saying that Kripke is a sexist because he allows the majority of the male characters survive while female characters die. That's bullshit.

I would have loved it if Hendrickson had survived to become a hunter alongside Dean and Sam. That would have been uber cool, because that would mean they would have an ally in law enforcement. How awesome would that have been?

Plus I kinda love that they went out for basically nothing and the big mission failed in the end. This is war, bitches. That's how it goes sometimes. The good guys don't always win and you lose soldiers along the way.

This, so hard. The fact that some people aren't getting this makes me facepalm.

Crowley needs to return, and so does Gabriel and Raphael, hell, even the little Antichrist kid, Jesse. These are characters that should recur in future episodes because they are made of absolute win. We've gotten so many new (and old) characters this season that deal with the Apocalypse and this big damn war they're all fighting, I just want them all to appear at the same time. That would be epic shit right there. :D

I think Meg considers Lucifer to be her father in the way that people consider God to be their father maybe?

Yeah, that's basically my thoughts. I know they mentioned Meg and the other guy being Azazel's children, although they haven't really explained that one fully in the show; so when upon saying that Lucifer is her father it's the same as others saying that God is their father, their creator.

Yeah...I'm still curious myself about Cas using his powers while in the Ring of Fire.

I'm thinking that, given how Raphael used his powers to crash-in the window in 5.03 and how Gabriel managed to bring Castiel back from wherever he sent him in 5.08, it's not completely implausible that angels can manipulate and use their abilities while being trapped inside the Holy Ring of Fire. It's just that angels cannot leave or enter the circle once it's been created. So there are loopholes but it also means they are limited if there's nothing to really break that ring of fire around them.

I still really wish the episode would have ended with Luci's "Oh hello, Death" but I was still happy with the episode.

Yeah, I agree. I get the symbolism and the honor by burning the photograph in memory of the Harvelles along with having the news in the background of death and destruction happening in the world, but that was so short of an ending I was like wtf? Oh well, it was an amazing episode either way, so I'll forgive that. :)
Kevin Jonesmulder200 on November 29th, 2009 01:49 am (UTC)
LOL! I thought the male on male kiss was awesome because it was so unexpected. That's how you should do it.

And I totally see your point on the Ellen/Jo death scene. I don't agree with it BUT I understand it.

And was one badass mofo in this! That was so cool! I too wondered if Cas was losing some of his powers but since he was in the Holy Ring, it's kinda hard to tell. We'll see.

And I also did not see the connections to The End until you pointed out. Maybe where the show is going with this is that while some events can be some changed, some cannot. Last season showed us this when they tried and failed to stop the Armageddon.

All in all, this eps. was depressing but good.
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on November 29th, 2009 02:20 am (UTC)
The fact that it was done in such a subtle manner with no big deal attached to it, makes it a huge deal amongst the fandom because it was so cleverly done. :D I'm happy they went there, and that it didn't create a huge fuss beforehand (which can ruin that element of surprise when there's hype surrounding something like that, tbh).

I love it when Castiel is being a badass motherfucker in the show. Like, he was intimidated due to Lucifer but we get to see him being all resourceful and badass along with it, and it was awesome.

Actually, it would make sense that he wouldn't be able to holy exorcise demons because that power is in connection to Heaven, which he's cut off from. So I think anything that means the use of Holy Power of Heaven is something he cannot do, such as healing and killing demons.

Yeah, the whole "all paths lead to the same destination" line continues to pop up. It makes me worried at how everything is going to go down. D:

Majorly fucking depressing, but so damn good that it's one of my favorites this season by far.
Shonaillekalikahuntress on November 29th, 2009 03:16 am (UTC)
Your sane and thoughtful reviews always make me happy. And boy am I glad to see a review that doesn't have complaints about the lack of Dean and Castiel. We are spoiled people as it is IMO and shippy stuff is not guaranteed in mid-arc episodes that have so many characters and so much going on plot-wise.
Renée: Six. Satisfied.rogueslayer452 on November 29th, 2009 04:25 am (UTC)
Thank you, bb. :) I had absolutely no complaints, in fact I didn't even really notice the lacking of Dean/Castiel scenes until someone mentioned it. Because I was so utterly pleased with this episode and how everything was handled that it slipped my mind. And yes, we have been completely spoiled this season that I didn't really mind it all that much at all.

I loved them dealing with other characters and the plot, because after some of the lighter, filler episodes we need something like this. It shows us that shit just got real, and I loved it.
mneiai: Supernatural--Castiel frowniemneiai on November 29th, 2009 04:11 am (UTC)
Okay, re: Meg calling Lucy "father." I think it was in the same way Azazel did, as in "God, the father" but Lucifer (he's their evil savior!). And I also don't get why people are upset with the Meg!bridge--she's a DEMON, we can't even say for sure if she's even female at all, and we CAN say that Castiel isn't really male.

We need so much more Crowley, Jesus Christ do I need Mark Sheppard on my screen as a baddie every single week.
Renée: Dean/Castiel.rogueslayer452 on November 29th, 2009 04:22 am (UTC)
It goes to show how some people are willing to nitpick anything that has any form of a male mistreating a female, even if the female is one of the baddies that deserved what was coming to them. It ain't always a PC issue, people, come on. Though into not entirely clear whether the show has dealt with either side being androgynous; there's been mentioning of "brothers and sisters" amongst the angels and "sons and daughters" of the demons, but again it's not been clear. This is something to ask Kripke and the writers, I think.

MOAR MARK SHEPPARD PLZ, I AGREE. Mark Sheppard on my Supernatural was just made of win. We need more Crowley, show. :DDD
mneiaimneiai on November 29th, 2009 04:38 am (UTC)
In angelic mythos they're pre-gender and SPN mythos supports the basic structure for that (ie: that angels came about before humans, etc.). But, yeah, it's ridiculous that a male good guy can't hurt a female bad guy because of gender issues--it's like people saying that Faith didn't really rape Xander because males can't be raped, or something. Either there's equality and therefore they can be hurt equally or there's not.

I love him so much. He's always one of my fav chars in everything he's in. I want to see him and Castiel having to interact. Or, y'know, him and Mishmish interacting on Leverage haha
mteemtee on November 29th, 2009 04:44 pm (UTC)
Great review! "extreme PC feminist views" -- best line. They are boring me!! Tired tired tired - give it a rest and save your rants for something important.. not a tv show!

Anyhoo... you really touched on some great points. Loved the Lucifer/Castiel scene... Lucifer can definitely touch on everyone's weaknesses or buttons. I almost moaned -- ok I actually did.. when he said the two words I dread to hear anymore (when talking to Sam) -- "freak" and "monster". Hasn't Sam learned by now ALL the demons and now Lucifer himself know to use those words to make Sam irrational and angry. I was a little disappointed to see Sam start to react to those words.. he really has to learn those are trigger words for him and the bad guys know it. Lilith used them to get Sam to "get back on track and kill her already", when he started to hesitate.. after hearing Dean's voice. Ruby's used it, Sam's used those words over and over in the earlier eps. Kind of grating on my nerves.

But Sam seemed to recover nicely.. so there's hope.

The ladies... I cried and felt so depressed... when a show can put you into a character's place, make you feel it so intensely.. then that's a great show. I'm a mother of a daughter and I flashed quickly and agonizingly onto what would I do if this was my baby girl dying in front of me! Nope.. don't go there... my heart was gone.

Cas walking across Meg -- perfect. I totally agree. Once again, those who no longer watch the show for enjoyment, but for a reason to rant against the evil men... lost the true meaning. I feel sorry for them, because they just aren't getting it. They can't enjoy this epic novel being played out for us every week!

I can't imagine how this is going to end. Will God appear (not physically but by action) and do an "enough, all of you" kind of thing? He flooded the world the last time things got too out of hand. Will we get a white light and then find the world rid of the demons and Lucifer in one swell swoop.

Ahhh Meg.. the blind cultist.. who see the "father" as wonderful, even when he's sacrificing his followers. She only see the "father" one way.. she can't see the lack of feeling he has for them.They are tools for him, that's all. Crowley can though.. a smart demon and a joy to watch.

Thank you again for the great insight and the guts to call some people out!
Renée: Castiel. Bookish.rogueslayer452 on November 29th, 2009 09:57 pm (UTC)
Thing is, I can understand some points of those arguments because of how women are portrayed in the media and whatnot, it can be a trigger for some who have strong opinions on the subject. But like you said, it's just a television show that doesn't have a "separate agenda" or anything like that, and sometimes people can get too wrapped up in their views to really be blind at what the story is really telling us. Those are the ones harshing the squee and ruining the enjoyment of watching the show for others.

Hasn't Sam learned by now ALL the demons and now Lucifer himself know to use those words to make Sam irrational and angry. I was a little disappointed to see Sam start to react to those words..

That's Sam's weakest point, I think, because he's always considered himself to be a freak or a monster, particularly since last season which hit a lot of triggers for him. He did recover quickly because he does want to prove and redeem himself, but that's just another obstacle Sam has to overcome. Lucifer and others will attempt to get underneath his skin again, he knows it.

Ellen and Jo's deaths were so depressing, but understandable and such a brave nod to how strong these women are. They weren't damsels in distress, they weren't left out in the cold to die quickly and to be forgotten. Their deaths demonstrated the strength of their characters, of Jo's maturity and rationality and Ellen's maternal love to stay by her daughter's side, and going out in such a badass manner. It really is hard to watch because you knew what was coming, but it's powerful because they packed so much emotional stuff that it's hard to really dislike the scene.

In fact, I think it's this episode that really shows just how such an impact can have on a viewer. It's really heavy, dark depressing stuff.

It's really nice seeing other demons, like Crowley, who aren't on either side and are just playing for survival. Knowing that Lucifer is only using the demons for his own purposes until he's tired of them. It reminds me of that demon girl Dean was chatting with in the beginning of S3, although she believed in Lucifer she seemed to have her own opinions on the war and such.

I'm really pondering how everything is going to end, because you know if you have something in mind it'll be completely turned around into something else, because that's how Kripke rolls. I have faith that somehow Castiel will find God and that God, in an incorporeal presence of course, will be like "step back bitches, I've got this" and take care of things. Because it's been my firm belief that even though the angels are taking control of the Apocalypse, this has been part of God's plan to really see who amongst his children, angel and human alike, are being faithful and those who aren't and wipe away those who are corrupted. Then again, it's just my personal speculation because that would be cool.

Thank you for reading the entirety of my review/meta! It's awesome hearing other people's thoughts. :DDD
bold_seer: rebel angelbold_seer on November 29th, 2009 07:09 pm (UTC)
There really were many parallels to The End; the photo, obviously, but also the weaker, more human Castiel - riding in (if not driving) a car, drinking etc.

You're right about Dean's ability to take charge of the situation despite it being too much for him to handle. And in both eps people sacrificed themselves for Dean/because of Dean. Necessary sacrifices - for nothing.
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on November 29th, 2009 10:01 pm (UTC)
It makes me wonder why Castiel needed to ride in the car anyway, since he clearly could still disappear/reappear in different locations.

God yes, those necessary sacrifices in believing it's for the greater cause, all which had been for nothing. This theme really brings forth the reality of this war and what's at stake. Which we've known for a while but it's really starting to settle in with the boys, Dean most of all.
spacefarer on November 30th, 2009 04:19 am (UTC)
Very interesting meta!

In terms of the comparison to "The End," it's interesting: at the end of 5.04, Dean agrees to hook back up with Sam, in part (I think) to help ensure that Sam doesn't say "yes" to Lucifer. Yet, in 5.04, we learn that Sam said yes (in Detroit) some 2 or 3 years down the road. Here, Lucifer says that Sam will say "yes" to him in *six* months. So the question now is, did Dean's and Sam's getting back together actually *speed* up events? Was Dean's first response--to stay apart--actually the right call?


Yep, I have no problem with what Cas did with Meg. Some of the reasons have already been posted above, but another one is, "she" is a demon, *not* a human female. The host is probably already dead or dying. I have no problem with an angel--who, BTW, isn't really "male," either--tricking a demon and using the demon to escape a trap.

Besides, you can't want equality for women in genre TV and film but then demand that only the upside of that equality is permitted. Genuine equality means that the hero or heroine can deal with "bad guy women" the same way they would deal with "bad guy men."


I loved Crowley, too, and I think the casting call listed the role as "recurring." It would be interesting if the Winchesters could form an alliance with demons who are not as ensorcelled by Lucifer as Meg is and who are reading the handwriting on the wall. However, between Crowley and a kid Anti-Christ, Pratchett and Gaiman have grounds for a lawsuit! LOL

Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on November 30th, 2009 06:53 am (UTC)
Thank you for commenting!

So the question now is, did Dean's and Sam's getting back together actually *speed* up events? Was Dean's first response--to stay apart--actually the right call?

That's the question that we keep returning to, isn't it? It seems to be quite an interesting path since either way, somewhere down the line, it's predestined that Sam will eventually say "yes" to Lucifer. But if Dean knew beforehand, and he hadn't called Sam to regroup, how would he have stopped this process if somewhere down the line Sam and Lucifer would meet up? Would there have been some other way, or is this just an inevitable thing and they really did speed things up?

It really makes things interesting with how Dean could have altered the timeline by changing certain events. Again, "all paths lead to the same destination", and it makes me very curious as what is going to happen next for our characters.

Besides, you can't want equality for women in genre TV and film but then demand that only the upside of that equality is permitted. Genuine equality means that the hero or heroine can deal with "bad guy women" the same way they would deal with "bad guy men."

I agree with this. On one hand I see the arguments, but on the other hand when you have a baddie who is in the form of a female why wouldn't you do the same thing you would do to a baddie that is male? I see this double standard played all the time, and I get why people would want the equality for women in the media but sometimes it's absolutely necessary in terms of the character, not because of gender issues.

It would be interesting if the Winchesters could form an alliance with demons who are not as ensorcelled by Lucifer as Meg is and who are reading the handwriting on the wall.

It would be fascinating seeing this happen. They tried to pass it off with the Winchesters, mainly Sam, teaming up with Ruby and having the red-herring of her being a "good-natured demon", but that backfired. I think it would be great if they went in knowing that yes, these are demons, but these are demons that clearly don't want Lucifer to win this war and are entirely in this for survival and want the Winchesters to win. Having demons that are straightforward in what they want, but having this uneasy alliance between sides, that would be awesome. I do want Crowley to become a recurring character, because he's just so awesome and I loved the chemistry Mark Sheppard has with the boys (well, he has chemistry with nearly everyone he works with, this is trufax).

However, between Crowley and a kid Anti-Christ, Pratchett and Gaiman have grounds for a lawsuit! LOL

LOL @ THIS! XD Though I'm loving the connections and homages to Good Omens and that Kripke and Co. are playing and adding it to their own mythology.