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19 March 2010 @ 10:37 pm
WHAT. I CAN'T EVEN.  

DANIEL GRAYSTONE, YOU ARE GONNA DIE.

LIKE OKAY, I GOTTA LOVE THE MORAL GRAYNESS OF HIS CHARACTER. BUT SERIOUSLY, WHAT THE HELL DID HE THINK HE WAS DOING? PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTS TO "PROVE" THAT ZOE STILL EXISTS IN THE CENTURION? THAT SHE STILL IS INSIDE THE MCP?

IF HE TRULY BELIEVED THAT HIS DAUGHTER'S AVATAR WAS STILL INSIDE THE ROBOT, WHY DID HE DO ALL THOSE THINGS? I KNOW IT WAS TO PSYCH HER OUT IF SHE WAS BEING DISOBEDIENT AND GETTING HER TO TALK TO HIM - BUT THAT WAS TAKING IT TOO FRAKKING FAR. WAY WAY TOO FRAKKING FAR.

THIS IS THE DOWNFALL OF EVERYTHING. YOU TREAT THE MACHINE WITH RESPECT YOU ASSHOLE, NOT PUSH ITS LIMITS TO YOUR LIKING!

MY CYLON-LOVING SIDE IS SO ANGERED RIGHT NOW. MORE THAN EVER ESPECIALLY SINCE WE KNOW ZOE IS IN THERE.

SHE'S A TOUGH GIRL, BUT GODDAMN IF THIS IS GOING TO FUEL HER RAGE AND DISTRUST OF DANIEL EVEN MORE BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DID.


THIS SHOW. I JUST. OMG. ANYONE THAT CONTINUES TO NITPICK IT AFTER THIS JUST NEEDS TO STFU AND GTFO BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW JACKSHIT.
 
 
Current Mood: OMG
 
 
 
Nicole Anell: sixnicole_anell on March 20th, 2010 06:05 am (UTC)
parents have to die, it's the only way children can come into their own
AAAAAH DANIEL RAGE.

OKAY I'M SURE I WILL GET OVER IT BECAUSE *HEART* ERIC STOLTZ AND YAY FOR MORAL DARKNESS AND SUCH, BUT GODSDAMN YOU GRAYSTONE. I don't know if I'm feeling more pain for Zoe because she's a Cylon or because she's his daughter or SOME TWISTED AWFUL COMBINATION OF BOTH, but he needs to knock this shit off.

What part of his brain thinks this is a good idea?? Yeah, maybe your robot baby is in there, and she's mad or reluctant to talk to you, and you're desperate to have her bond with you again -- so CLEARLY the way to fix that is to psychologically torture her a bunch. Great. Excellent logic there!

Open letter to all residents of the BSG 'verse: Your children will kill your ass if you give them a reason to.

Edited at 2010-03-20 06:06 am (UTC)
Renée: BSG. Natalie is not pleased.rogueslayer452 on March 20th, 2010 06:30 am (UTC)
Re: parents have to die, it's the only way children can come into their own
FOR ME IT'S BOTH, LIKE HOW CAN SOMEONE THINK ABOUT DOING THOSE THINGS JUST TO PROVE THEIR POINT, OR TO CONVINCE THEMSELVES OF SUCH? MACHINE OR NOT YOU DO NOT GO TO THOSE LENGTHS. THAT'S JUST DOWNRIGHT CRUEL. I, too, love Eric and think this direction is perfect for the character, but it doesn't make me any less angry.

WHERE'S PHILOMON WHEN YOU NEED HIM? D:

Open letter to all residents of the BSG 'verse: Your children will kill your ass if you give them a reason to.

THIS. Zoe already distrusted Daniel, and now he's given her more reason to think so. The way she was talking about him to Lacy, about how she wanted to strangle him and shoot him if the gun was filled with bullets instead of blanks, this is setting up for the absolute anger that will be the fuel for the Cylon rebellion. Treating her like a thing, pushing her limits, you push her hard enough Daniel she's gonna push ten times as hard back, and you'll be sorry.
kitchensexslavekitchensexslave on March 20th, 2010 02:49 pm (UTC)
I could hardly stop myself from shouting at him to stop being such a stupid, cruel, asshole. AND THEN HE MADE HER SHOOT HER DOG. AND SHE DID IT.

I love Caprica so much.

Also: "so you're giving me the cylon treatment..." XD
Renée: BSG. We has teh mindfraks.rogueslayer452 on March 20th, 2010 04:13 pm (UTC)
I WAS SRSLY HOPING THAT SHE WOULDN'T, OR AT LEAST ATTEMPT TO SHOOT HIM OR SOMETHING. BUT THEN SHE SHOT THE DOG! THEY WERE BLANKS, THANK GOODNESS, BUT STILL!!! D: *cuddles doggie* You could tell she seriously was like "fuck this shit" but knew that she would be risking exposure, but then the robot knowledge came into play so she knew. But still, the entire situation was like so intense. :O

Just like BSG, always pushing the envelope with controversial issues, including animal rights. TO SHOOT THE DOG OR TO NOT SHOOT THE DOG, THAT IS THE QUESTION!

Did he say "Cylon treatment?" I have to go back and rewatch/listen carefully for that. And if so, that's very clever. ;D
kitchensexslavekitchensexslave on March 21st, 2010 12:57 am (UTC)
...it could be I just heard it like that, and he really said "silent"...
Renéerogueslayer452 on March 21st, 2010 02:04 am (UTC)
But now that I've rewatched that scene I can't unhear "Cylon" so, heh, perhaps it was intentionally placed there because she was only answering to the robot commands. So it makes sense he would say that; Zoe hiding behind the Cylon, thus giving him the "Cylon treatment".
(Deleted comment)
Renéerogueslayer452 on March 20th, 2010 04:18 pm (UTC)
I would rather imagine that this makes her feel unsettled to have all of these memories and experiences but never actually lived a single one of them.

This is pretty much what I've been thinking, too. Daniel thinks that this Zoe is his Zoe, and while she may have the memories of the original Zoe Graystone she really isn't. She is her own entity, but the confusion of having both the robot's memories/programs as well as the original Zoe's, plus her own experiences since being created. It must be so difficult for her. It also coincides with how the Tamara avatar must be feeling, trying to find a place in that virtual world considering she can't get back into the real world due to not being real.
(Deleted comment)
Renée: Caprica. Zoe Graystone.rogueslayer452 on March 21st, 2010 02:02 am (UTC)
I wonder if that might be a red-herring? Of course, we have no idea what Tamara has experienced in V-World or what she's found out about herself during that time, maybe she wants to tell Joseph something but then shoots him so he doesn't come back into the New Cap City game. I don't know.

I just can't believe next week is the last episode before the hiatus.
grey_swgrey_sw on March 20th, 2010 06:18 pm (UTC)
DANIEL GRAYSTONE, YOU ARE GONNA DIE.

Yeah, that does seem likely. When Joseph was trying to answer the "impossible" riddle about what happens to parents who abuse their kids, I was pretty much yelling THE ANSWER IS DEATH YOU MORON! FLAMING CYLON DEATH FROM ABOVE!

I think Daniel is partly excusing his own behavior because he knows Zoe isn't really his daughter. He knows she's an avatar, so he's treating her like one... and since the other non-player-character avatars aren't even remotely "real", he's trying to convince himself that she must not be, either.

Then again, he doesn't show much respect for any other living thing (poor Caesar! poor race of sentient robots built only to slave for humanity!), so maybe he's just one stone cold motherfrakker (shut your mouth!)
Chani φ: Caprica daniel and josephfrenchani on March 20th, 2010 06:30 pm (UTC)
Caesar wasn't in danger, Daniel made sure of that hence his using blanks. It isn't like he asked the U-87 to grab the dog and tear his head out which he could have...

I agree with you that before going on with his little tortures Daniel sort of reminded himself that his oe wasn't reall in the Cylon. So yes Daniel is partly excusing his behaviour here, like Sam deals with his, like Zoe excused her shooting Ceasar, like Jospeh shooting people in the club, by knowing/believing that this is not real.
Renée: BSG. Natalie is not pleased.rogueslayer452 on March 21st, 2010 01:51 am (UTC)
Caesar wasn't in danger, Daniel made sure of that hence his using blanks. It isn't like he asked the U-87 to grab the dog and tear his head out which he could have...

And that makes okay? It doesn't matter of what method he used to be "safer", it's the intention of putting a living creature in that kind of danger for his own purposes of getting whatever answers he needed, whether in reality or for his own reassurance of his mind. That is NO EXCUSE for endangering a poor innocent dog like Caesar.
Chani φ: Caprica daniel and josephfrenchani on March 21st, 2010 10:07 am (UTC)
But he was not endangering Ceasar. He didn't have any intention of putting the dog in danger. He was bluffing, something that was foreshadowed in the outside scene when he used a poker analogy.

I'm more angry at Zoe eventually, because I think she didn't know that Ceasar wasn't in danger, her face just before Daniel started counting told me so, and I don't buy what she told Lacy later, it was just her way to excuse her behaviour for letting the Cylon take charge and shoot Ceasar. The writing is very smart. All the storylines are connected and Sam telling Joseph that you can kill/shoot anyone if you think it isn't real is the key of the whole episode. Both Joseph and Zoe found the killer inside of them.
Renée: Echo. I can take care of myself.rogueslayer452 on March 21st, 2010 12:17 pm (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I very much disagree with that. Bluff or not, harming the dog in anyway was just ruthless and cruel.

Zoe might not have known at first about Daniel's intentions or how far he was willing to go, but I think she was being absolutely truthful when she told Lacy about the robot's knowledge coming through when she grabbed the gun. Zoe wouldn't ever hurt anyone like that intentionally or put anyone in danger, and while she was willing to do whatever Daniel commanded just so he wouldn't find her out, I think she wouldn't dare cross that line if Daniel himself were to risk his own dog in that crossfire -- because it was also be his own fault, too.

If Zoe found the killer inside of herself, it was mainly pushed by Daniel by these so-called tests.
Renée: Six. It's good to be a Cylon.rogueslayer452 on March 21st, 2010 02:00 am (UTC)
That was my first thought too, regarding the riddle. I actually thought "in blood" because it seemed to fit and realizing that that's precisely what the riddle was saying.

I think Daniel is partly excusing his own behavior because he knows Zoe isn't really his daughter. He knows she's an avatar, so he's treating her like one... and since the other non-player-character avatars aren't even remotely "real", he's trying to convince himself that she must not be, either.

Oh definitely, which makes me slightly even more angry because despite not being his daughter or even "real", we as the audience know that Zoe (and Tamara, too) are just trying to understand their place in this strange, strange world, whether virtual or in reality. But with Daniel treating Zoe as just a thing, like how everyone else sans Lacy and Philomon have done ever since she has been in the real world, it just really makes it hard to sympathize with his character even if he is grieving or whatever.

Daniel has presented numerous of times that he's willing to go out of his way to do whatever is best for himself and for his company, with zero regards of other people's thoughts. While yes, he's still human and makes human mistakes and this is one of his characteristic flaws of that, I don't think he's that stone cold. But the fact that he's willing to endanger the dog as well as torturing the Zoe-bot thinking that would get her attention and to mind him almost places him in that category.
grey_swgrey_sw on March 21st, 2010 05:18 am (UTC)
But with Daniel treating Zoe as just a thing, like how everyone else sans Lacy and Philomon have done ever since she has been in the real world, it just really makes it hard to sympathize with his character even if he is grieving or whatever.

"Grieving or whatever" is a real good way to put it -- oh no, I drove my daughter away and then she died, so I will steal this chip and also her avatar and also torture her some! Maybe he should talk to his virtual therapist or something. Hey, I hear that SergeGraystone guy on twitter gives good advice!

Daniel seems like a perfectly nice guy as long as absolutely nothing's on the line. Too bad he's a captain of industry. :P
Chani φfrenchani on March 20th, 2010 06:25 pm (UTC)
He didn't want to prove anything, he wanted her to talk to him. He wanted to get back the old connection they had and that is lost.

I also think he is still dealing with his own guilt since Vergis told him about the murders and looking for a punishment. Giant robot killer with angry teenager inside has been cast for the role!

I love Daniel!
Renée: BSG. ALL ALONG THE WATCHTOWER.rogueslayer452 on March 21st, 2010 01:49 am (UTC)
It may be true that he was just dealing with his own grief concerning his daughter, particularly unloading all the emotions he never let out regarding the reasons of her death, but that still doesn't excuse what he did, outlet or no.

Besides, Zoe is absolutely in the right. Daniel is only using whatever means necessary for his own gain to save his company. Who is to say that if she told him the truth he would have treated her all the same as though she were in real life? The thing about Daniel is that he's in that gray spot, I understand his grieving but at the same time he can be acting purely on that selfish mode; he wanted his daughter back, he wants to bring the Zoe-A into real life without thinking of the consequences. He created the Tamara avatar for Joseph, not thinking about how this Tamara would be feeling. He even was willing to sacrifice the dog just to push those limits to see if Zoe, if he was so convinced she was in there, would break.

I like the direction of Daniel's character because of his morality dilemmas and challenges, the fact that we question and are conflicted with what he does means that he's also a complex character just like the rest of them. But that doesn't mean I have to like or agree with every single decision he makes.
Chani φ: capricafrenchani on March 21st, 2010 09:59 am (UTC)
Oh don't misunderstand me, I think that what he did was wrong! I wouldn't say that Zoe is absolutely in the right though.

I think that they are both in the wrong, and that they both have misconceptions about each other. Daniel still believes that Zoe set the bomb that killed the innocent people on the train; Zoe keep imagining the worst about her father (juts like when she thought Tamara was his virtual sex-toy)partly because he is her father and she is a teenager, partly because of his dirty science and she has been "brainwhashed" by fanatics.

Anyway, I didn't mean to say that you had to agree with every decision he makes (I don't think he does himself actually), my comment was mostly a knee-jerk reaction. Sorry for popping up on your journal like that. it's just that I consider Daniel the most interesting character on the show so I don't want him to die! :- )

And I'm relieved that Daniel never risked Ceasar's life.
Renée: Dollhouse. Kilo. No mercy.rogueslayer452 on March 21st, 2010 12:36 pm (UTC)
The thing is, when I wrote the "DANIEL IS GOING TO DIE" comment in my post was simply reactionary, because regardless of who is in the crossfire or not we all know that treating the Cylons in this manner is going to be what fuels the end of humanity. I'm not suggesting that Daniel should die because I, too, find his character interesting and his pushing and prodding of Zoe in this episode led to more of his character complexity and moral ambiguity of how far he was willing to go no matter what.

However, I side more with Zoe because I completely agree with her because honestly, it's true. At the end of the day, it's all about Daniel Graystone and his corporation. She has to think of the worst of him because through the memories of the original Zoe and what she experienced with him, with him treating her like a thing then wanting to capture her code for his own personal gain of wanting his daughter back, what proof does she have that Daniel can be trusted in the slightest? It's classic father-daughter issues, only taken to the next level of distrust, which is understandable given to what we know of Daniel and how far he's willing to go for certain things.

The thing with the writing for Caprica is that we are taken into every character's perspectives, understand their motives and decide or question for ourselves the situations laid out before us. Is Daniel in the right? Is Zoe correct about her father? Which is the right path for these characters to take? Etc. We all have our views and perspectives on these issues which, whether we agree or disagree, means the show is doing precisely what it should: making us think.
Reckless Endangerment to Youth: dreamlotuseyes on March 20th, 2010 06:35 pm (UTC)
ah...but I felt kind of bad for Daniel in this. I mean, of course he wasn't doing it because he was all 'i miss my daughter and seeing her is all that matters' like certain Taurons we could mention but I still think he does miss Zoe and in his own way thinks he can find redemption with the Zoe Avatar for the ills his daughter felt because of him. I truly believe he feels remorse for how things turned out with Original Zoe and if he was just Daniel Graystone and not Dr. Daniel Graystone with the military contract, I'd think Zoe-A was being the bitch here.

But he's not and she's not in the wrong. I still can't help but feel bad for him. Like Joseph he doesn't have the closure he needs to put Zoe to rest and move on in the grieving process.

That all being said I wanted to murder Virgis and Clarice. The two of them just need to jump into a shuttlebus and dive off a cliff.

Meanwhile I think that chickeedee with Joseph in New Cap City is his secretary lady Evelyn (that's her name right?). I don't know maybe I'm thinking too hard but she has said several times 'I'm being paid to help you' and 'Its my job to help you' and then in this episode she called him Counselor...plus we know that she is the one he ends up marrying at some point because she's listed as Adama's other parent on his CV in BSG.

Oh Sam. I just felt so bad for him. What must he be thinking about his brother right now? First he orders him to kill a woman (then chickens out) then asks about killing someone...::sigh:: No wonder Adama had such a frakking hard time coping with his own kids--his father sucks at this quite frankly.
Renéerogueslayer452 on March 21st, 2010 01:41 am (UTC)
I do think that he was using these methods of unloading his feelings about his own daughter because he's never really expressed himself about her death or the reasons of her death before; like he was going off about her being distant and defying him and Amanda just by blowing up a train, he was unleashing his emotions about that. But at the same time, that does not excuse his behaviors or even his rights of doing what he did since he's acting in his own best interest as well.

And Zoe knows it, she senses it. She knows that if she does tell him the truth he'll only use her for his own personal gains, and she wants none of it.

That all being said I wanted to murder Virgis and Clarice. The two of them just need to jump into a shuttlebus and dive off a cliff.

I love Clarice, and I'm very interested in Vergis and his deal. They're both in that ambiguous realm of the show, like you don't know what is going to happen next with them. Clarice I practically am loving more and more with each passing episode due to her involvement and interactions with certain characters, and Vergis is very unpredictable. I like that.

Meanwhile I think that chickeedee with Joseph in New Cap City is his secretary lady Evelyn

I completely agree, I thought the same thing too since it's much too coincidental that someone would pay someone else to help Joseph out in a virtual world, and we've seen Evelyn helping him out to find the kid that brought him the message about his daughter in the first place. There's certainly a connection there.

With this episode I was like YAY SAM! \O/ I liked their conversation, though yeah it must be difficult watching his brother still live in the past despite from supposedly moving on.
The Large Purple Weed: Cylon Centuriontracy on March 20th, 2010 11:16 pm (UTC)
I am also loving the morally gray path he's going down, and it's like a train wreck and I LOVE IT. I'm not even mad at him because *FLAILS* SO AWESOME that they are even touching these sorts of difficult themes, just like BSG touched some really fucking difficult themes. I WANT him to keep pushing her limits and being an asshole, and I WANT to see how all this leads to the cylon rebellion and fjkdlflkdsjfksld omg showwwww. This episode reminds me of BSG more than any other.
Renée: Six. It's good to be a Cylon.rogueslayer452 on March 21st, 2010 01:32 am (UTC)
SERIOUSLY. I JUST, OMG.

I really love the direction they're going with his character because although this excuses nothing with what he did it is leading us to the inevitable. On one hand I want to shake him and go LEAVE ZOE ALONE! because what the hell Daniel? But on the other hand, I want him to push her over the limit so she can finally snap and it's leaving me with all these excited feelings for what we KNOW is going to come.

This episode really was very BSG-esque, I agree. The use of psychological torture just to get to know the truth. They are hitting the darkened morally gray areas very well, and it's like I like Daniel but I dislike him at the same time for doing what he did, and yet I can't wait to see Zoe go off on him. It'll be fantastic. :D
ashley: tv; bsg · he'll blow your shit upkitsu84 on March 21st, 2010 02:53 am (UTC)
THE DOG. DDDDDDDD:

ABOUT GAVE ME A FRAKKIN' HEART ATTACK, JESUS. Still, Joseph being all ~badass in that club made me go nnnnngh.
Renée: BSG. Adama love.rogueslayer452 on March 21st, 2010 03:11 am (UTC)
THE POOR DOG! OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY WENT THERE (then again, in BSG they snapped a baby's neck so they can do anything). JUST THE TENSION IN THAT SCENE ALONE I WAS LIKE NO! NO ZOE, DON'T DO IT! DON'T HURT POOR CAESAR! D: D: D: AND THEN IT WAS DONE, WITH BLANKS BUT STILL! OMGWHUTSHOW!

Joseph took Sam's advice, he went all BADASS FOR HIS DAUGHTER HELL YEAH!