?

Log in

No account? Create an account
 
 
03 September 2010 @ 01:54 pm
Meta: Responsibility should lie where?  
Okay, I've run across this argument several times in fandom regarding Castiel's involvement in the Apocalypse, and whether or not he should apologize for being somewhat responsible for what happened in the fourth season. This has come up time and again, mostly with debates about his character in general.

Here's what I have to say: Castiel doesn't need to apologize for anything.

It's not that he's not responsible, they all are in many ways, but he's practically proven himself multiple times in redeeming himself from those past wrongs ever since the fourth season finale. He rebelled against Heaven for humanity, he died in protecting the Winchesters, he fought on their side, he killed his brothers and risked himself over and over again, even in times of doubt and despair he still fought alongside them and what they believed in, even risking losing his grace for them. Isn't that enough in convincing that he's making up for those things he wanted to do, but couldn't, based on the upper hand in Heaven? I think many people are forgetting that regardless of what happened, everyone was a pawn to ensure the Apocalypse and the unleashing of Lucifer happened. I mean, surely Castiel could apologize for letting Sam out of the panic room, but what would that accomplish? It would be moot point right now considering all what he's done for the boys since then, and quite frankly I believe actions speak louder than words.

Some people are still hung up on Castiel letting Sam out of the panic room dealio, and while yes bad, but if Castiel hadn't done it another angel would have. It was an inevitable incident that, once again, they all played their part in no matter what. It's almost like people complaining about Castiel "manipulating Dean" in the very same episode. Never mind that those were his orders that he clearly was reluctant on obeying, but had to considering he was held on a very short leash by his superiors. Castiel was torn between wanting to do the right thing and following orders, which he knows the consequences for disobeying; he was growing and learning, he was afraid and rightfully so knowing the manipulative ways Heaven operates. He clearly had remorse, he was tormented with having to do those things but it was like Heaven was placing a gun to his head forcing him to otherwise dire consequences would occur. He had no choice, until Dean convinced him that he did in the finale. Remember, Castiel (and many other angels in fact) weren't given the inside scoop about the true motives the higher superiors were up to regarding the Apocalypse, hence why they were all given to believe they were doing things for the good, until Castiel had discovered it was not the case, which led to him being "retrained" and punished in Heaven and doing those things that he did.

It also reminds me how angry I was at Anna when she came back in S5 to blame Castiel for letting her get caught when, hello, wasn't she the one who previously mentioned that if Castiel had gotten dragged back to Heaven unwillingly it was bad, really bad? Never mind that he did tell her that she shouldn't have arrived, so she should have understood the circumstances he was under despite all of that. She should have known better, especially if she was a so-called "former superior" and all, but no. She blamed him instead of herself in that matter. Another reason why I dislike her character, but that's neither here nor there at this moment.

So in conclusion to this argument, was Castiel responsible for some things happening? In ways yes, as they all were. But he shouldn't need to apologize when he's already made countless amends for everything through his actions since all of that. Think of all he's done for the Winchesters, for humanity, what he's sacrificed and gave up. People should be focusing on what he's done rather than dwelling on a previous incident.


Just needed to get that off my chest.

Other than that, it appears that Creation Entertainment has really pushed the Miracle Button because, come January 2011, Supernatural will be coming to San Francisco! Guys, this is literally right next door to me. \O/\O/ The main reason why I initially went to LACon was because it was the closest convention there would be without having to travel all the way across the country to go to, and lo and behold they've put them even closer. I didn't even realize it until someone on my flist mentioned it a few days ago. This is just awesome. Although come to Sacramento next, will ya guys? The only convention here is Twilight-based and that's kind of insulting, really. We need more variety.

Guess who might be going now that the offer is right in my backyard? ;D
 
 
Current Mood: contemplativecontemplative
Current Music: Agnes Monica - Godai Aku Lagi
 
 
 
Filomena: &girls;aubade_saudade on September 3rd, 2010 11:02 pm (UTC)
i think there's a difference between being responsible and being at fault. like, was Castiel responsible for some of the stuff that happened? yes, he was.

a lot of people were responsible for what happened, and some people were at fault for what happened, because they made the big decisions and they delegated the dirty jobs.

Castiel took the responsibility for his actions and he dealt the best way he knew how. was it his fault? no, it wasn't.

besides, he sacrificed again and again. do these people not know the meaning of repentance and redemption?
Renée: Dean/Castiel. Between us.rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 12:33 am (UTC)
I think the fourth season was fantastic in dealing with the responsibility vs fault aspect, because there was definitely a domino effect happening that either one was unaware of or refused to acknowledge until it was too late. Many characters suffer through that, Dean and Sam and Castiel all go through the motions at realizing they were responsible for something that inherently caused the very thing they were trying to prevent.

besides, he sacrificed again and again. do these people not know the meaning of repentance and redemption?

I think many people just want it to be verbally mentioned rather than not mentioned at all since it happened. I mean, I guess I understand the frustration people had when the show was blaming Sam for starting the Apocalypse when it was Dean that opened the first seal in Hell that caused the domino effect in the first place, but I think there are many people who don't feel that what all Castiel has done was justified enough in that admission of guilt/regret/making up for things, etc.

But really now, if people are still thinking Castiel needs to say anything given all the evidence of him sacrificing himself for the boys time and again, they are really holding a serious grudge.
bold_seer: = castielbold_seer on September 3rd, 2010 11:29 pm (UTC)
Castiel doesn't need to apologize for anything.

This. Thank you.
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 12:13 am (UTC)
There's definitely loads of finger pointing and blaming in fandom without looking at the entire picture; every single character has been at fault for something, has been responsible for certain events taken place whether they were aware of it happening or not, they all have major flaws that need to be corrected and to shift and change and evolve from that. It's what makes such characters compelling and interesting to watch as the learn and grow, and Castiel in the beginning isn't the same Castiel we see in the finale.

But it seems so many people are strung up on him letting Sam out of the panic room (a common argument I see practically everywhere) that they feel that Castiel needs to apologize for that when he doesn't really have to, judging from the many things he's done to amend those wrong deeds he did underneath obedience of Heaven.

No character gets a free pass for anything, but sometimes you don't need words to express remorse or guilt or forgiveness. Certain actions speak louder than any old apology would. And Castiel has done that countless times.
(Deleted comment)
Renée: Castiel. Adorkable.rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 12:05 am (UTC)
:D
(Deleted comment)
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 12:03 am (UTC)
But Castiel did rat Anna out after he'd turned to her for help about "considering disobedience" and she'd trusted him in good faith. He definitely bears responsibility for that.

See, I disagree with that because when he was considering disobedience it was because he didn't know where to turn, he was lost in the woods on what and who to trust and believe. However post-"The Rapture" we learn that after he learned more about the truth and whatever Heaven did to him was to scare him back to be obedient. Considering the circumstances of that, he really didn't rat her out because he told her that she shouldn't have come. Besides, she knew beforehand that it was a bad thing for Heaven to drag him back, so why did she even go to him knowing that he might be underneath hard surveillance by the higher ups?

Granted I hate Anna with a fiery passion so my bias may be coming through due to that, but what I'm saying is that there should be more understanding with Castiel underneath those circumstances that he was under. I understand what you're saying that he inherently had some responsibility of that happening without stopping it, however he's definitely not at fault and shouldn't be blamed entirely and I hated that she tried to do so without considering all that occurred and still is occurring.

Cas is my favorite character, but I think he's morally gray, like most of the characters. It's part of what makes him interesting. He's not worse than Dean or Sam or any of the other good guys, but the fact that he was only reluctantly obeying orders doesn't absolve him of his choices.

There's definitely some moral grayness to him as he's starting to learn and understand the differences between following orders and being responsible for his own actions and choices, and even learning that he does have a choice instead of following orders like a good little soldier. Some are larger than others which he's partaken in, but that's what makes him interesting because he's learning about those consequences. I just feel like many people are blaming him for things that he was clearly trying to figure out, since Castiel was new to the concept of freedom of will and choice and disobeying orders and his family that he's been following for centuries.

The fact that Castiel has that much complexity to his character makes him far more interesting to examine in these kinds of incidents at making sense about him and his involvement, the flaws he has and what he's doing to amend them, etc.

Edited at 2010-09-04 12:04 am (UTC)
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 12:28 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 01:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - aubade_saudade on September 4th, 2010 01:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 02:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - aubade_saudade on September 4th, 2010 02:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
Kevin Jonesmulder200 on September 4th, 2010 01:28 am (UTC)
You know even if Castiel is at fault, he has more than made up for it with his actions and dying not once but TWICE!

Some people just need to get over it.
Renée: Castiel. PWND.rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 01:36 am (UTC)
Precisely. His countless actions have long since justified and made up for some of the things he may be responsible for in the past. I mean, there are still some fans who think Castiel is untrustworthy or working for Heaven now which...are they even watching the same show? O_o
just a small town girl: [inception] bitchfacecarameltrap on September 4th, 2010 05:12 am (UTC)
THIS. THANK YOU.

Castiel already did so much. He helped the brothers time and time again, killed his own kin and died for them twice. Twice. What more do people want? 'Oh, I let Sam out of the panic room? Sorry about that'? That, as you said, is moot point. It's done and over. I can't believe that people are still hung over up the panic room incident and arguing about that. Get over it.

As for the Anna incident, it's partially her own fault for coming to him. He never lead her to be caught. He was there and she approached him. He already told her that she shouldn't have come and she shouldn't have, if she had thought about it. She went, got caught by her own fault and blamed him for it.

It's Dean for breaking, Sam for ending it, Mary who made the deal which was what started it all. It's not one person's fault when you take those into account. It's partially everyone's for starting the ball rolling.
Renée: Castiel. Wings.rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 11:57 pm (UTC)
There's always gonna be those fans that think there should be verbal apologizes no matter what. With everything that's happened, everything Castiel has given up and sacrificed and done for the brothers and in this war, and the bigger scheme of things, that should be plenty of evidence right there saying that Castiel has already given penance, more than enough really.

As for the Anna incident, it's partially her own fault for coming to him. He never lead her to be caught. He was there and she approached him. He already told her that she shouldn't have come and she shouldn't have, if she had thought about it. She went, got caught by her own fault and blamed him for it.

Exactly! Thank you! To say he "ratted her out" is ridiculous because when you actually watch the episode he honestly didn't. He even warned her she shouldn't have come, she knew beforehand that Heaven had taken him back for a purpose, why she didn't piece that together is her own damn fault. Granted it could argue about Castiel's loyalty and how one would naturally assume that he would be perfectly okay to approach, but when you take what happened to him into account, and him letting Sam out of the panic room, that should be a sign that something is up and it's not good. She didn't think, therefore it is her own mistake, not his.

It's Dean for breaking, Sam for ending it, Mary who made the deal which was what started it all. It's not one person's fault when you take those into account. It's partially everyone's for starting the ball rolling.

Bingo. Everyone has been a pawn in this, whether they realize it or not.
Tinka: Castielgwaevalarin on September 4th, 2010 07:15 am (UTC)
I agree with you that it would be odd and unecessary for Castiel to suddenly apologise now for what happened more than a year ago with everything they've been through since. With everything he did to set it right. They all played their part in starting the Apocalypse and Castiel has more than made up for it.
Actually, I don't think he ever needed to apologise for letting Sam out of the panic room. Just because I think it was wrong and he knew it - and, yes, it kinda did make me a little angry at him because I care about him so much - doesn't mean that I don't understand why he did it.
But everytime I think about that scene the beginning of season 5 comes to mind as well. How he blames Sam and Dean for starting the Apocalypse, for letting him down when he knows full well that he played his part in it. He's angry and scared and frustrated at that point and not really thinking straight. I get that. It's fine. Funnily enough, I think it's surprisingly human.
The reason I always wanted the show to bring it up again is that I was waiting for Castiel do admit to his role in starting the Apocalypse. Not because he needed to apologise, not even necessarily admit it to Sam and Dean at all, but admit it to himself because I was afraid that somehwere, in the back of his mind, it might be eating away at him.
Renée: Castiel. Searching for answers.rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 11:36 pm (UTC)
Actually, I don't think he ever needed to apologise for letting Sam out of the panic room. Just because I think it was wrong and he knew it - and, yes, it kinda did make me a little angry at him because I care about him so much - doesn't mean that I don't understand why he did it.

My thoughts exactly. It puzzles me why people don't look at the whole picture because if they did they wouldn't be so hung up on something like that. I can understand the frustrations of him doing something like that, in fact all the characters have done something wrong or stupid or horrible in this show, the fourth season is a prime example of many things happening that was underneath their responsibility one way or another whether they were aware of it or not.

I also agree with you about Castiel in the beginning of S5 as well. It's totally understandable his frustrations and why he lashed out at Dean, and for people to call foul aren't looking at things from his perspective. He died trying to do the right thing, hoping the Winchesters would save the world in time, he rebelled against Heaven for that. Now he's an outcast, shunned by Heaven, and with Dean belittling his beliefs it was the last straw and he needed to make a point to him -- in that very same sentence he ranted at Dean he told him that he sacrificed everything. Even though yes now he's part of the equation as well, it's understandable where he's coming from and I don't blame him for that, either.

The reason I always wanted the show to bring it up again is that I was waiting for Castiel do admit to his role in starting the Apocalypse. Not because he needed to apologise, not even necessarily admit it to Sam and Dean at all, but admit it to himself because I was afraid that somehwere, in the back of his mind, it might be eating away at him.

Oh, I so agree with this, in fact I was hoping they would get to something like that last season with his mission to finding God, but we all know how the show loves in lacking further development on that front with supporting characters. But nevertheless, I feel like he does need to admit and acknowledge it for himself than anyone else. It would make for amazing character development, as well.
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexylove_jackianto on September 4th, 2010 05:39 pm (UTC)
I agree. Besides apologizing, what would he have to do to make those people happy, die multiple tim... oh wait. I bet they STILL think he's evil too because he's coming between Sam and Dean. and even if he had apologized they'd probably still hate him.

I wonder if those are the same people who got pissed off because Lucifer apparently lied to Nick about not able bring his family back. Hello, he's the devil.
Renée: Misha. Are you fucking serious?rogueslayer452 on September 4th, 2010 06:17 pm (UTC)
I've also found that even some Castiel fans want it to happen to, for the reason of it being acknowledged about what he did. While I do agree that with this show sometimes things hardly get acknowledged from previous episodes that should have been, it wouldn't make any sense to do so now. How would that make things better? Some people actually are wondering how Dean would take it knowing that Castiel let his brother out of the panic room....it perhaps wouldn't change anything now, would it? He knew that Castiel had been on that short leash and I'm betting he would understand those circumstances. Besides, he's more than made up for all of that and then some, you know? So really, what good would it do to bring it up now?

But yeah, I agree. No matter what Castiel does haters are still gonna hate.

I wonder if those are the same people who got pissed off because Lucifer apparently lied to Nick about not able bring his family back. Hello, he's the devil.

Wow, are you serious? I sometimes wonder about the fans in this fandom and whether they actually pay attention to the show at all. Angels have been proven to be manipulative bastards, even more so than demons. Besides, this is Lucifer for crying out loud.
(no subject) - love_jackianto on September 5th, 2010 02:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 5th, 2010 06:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - love_jackianto on September 5th, 2010 06:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 5th, 2010 06:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - love_jackianto on September 5th, 2010 07:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 5th, 2010 11:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - love_jackianto on September 6th, 2010 02:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 6th, 2010 08:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - love_jackianto on September 7th, 2010 02:06 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on September 8th, 2010 08:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - love_jackianto on September 8th, 2010 02:42 pm (UTC) (Expand)
cheerful_earl: Castielcheerful_earl on September 8th, 2010 08:23 am (UTC)
I pretty much agree. Castiel did something bad, yes, but he more than made up for it. He was tortured into breaking (or at least we're led to believe that by the Rapture) and did something he knew was wrong but for what he wanted to believe was a good reason (to bring peace to the world- to Dean). Was it wrong? Yeah, and he holds a share of the responsibility.

However... It is fascinating to me that there has been no apology. Because there's a sort of ambiguity there- is it self-preservation on Cas' part? Does he think he'd lose his place on Team Free Will? Does he want it conveniently forgotten? Cas is a strategist, and leaving well enough alone? Probably a smart plan.

But Anna? Yeah, when I first saw it, I was like "oooh, he betrayed her!" but you know what? You're right. He didn't. He said, immediately, "You shouldn't be here." Clearly, he hadn't called her there. She came to him and she must have known the risk.
Renée: Castiel. Wings.rogueslayer452 on September 8th, 2010 09:08 am (UTC)
Cas is a strategist, and leaving well enough alone? Probably a smart plan.

That's what I'm thinking, too. Of course we don't really know whether it has been discussed between him and the brothers or not, and that's something else the show has failed to acknowledge or mention. It's kind of the same thing when we had Castiel putting the verbal smackdown on Sam and then episodes later he's saying that Sam is his friend. Where did that happen? Was there a scene cut out that gives us something to say that Sam and Castiel are cool with each other now? It kind of makes you wonder about that whole thing they're trying to sell, you know.

But Anna? Yeah, when I first saw it, I was like "oooh, he betrayed her!" but you know what? You're right. He didn't. He said, immediately, "You shouldn't be here." Clearly, he hadn't called her there. She came to him and she must have known the risk.

Exactly. It would have been different had he called her there himself to discuss it and then they took her away. That he would be responsible for. But no, that's not what happened. She came on her own freewill, knowing the risks especially after already knowing before that Heaven had taken him against his will, and she was careless to go to him thinking everything was a-okay. It irritates me in that scene when she blames him for all of that. Like she's one to talk about certain betrayals and such. It's like bitch, step off okay?

Edited at 2010-09-08 09:09 am (UTC)