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29 October 2010 @ 03:14 am
It's been nagging at my brain...  
Was Sam really in Hell? Because correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that Lucifer's cage was more of solitary confinement. And even if this was the case, had Sam been telling the truth he wouldn't have been there for as long as Dean had been and definitely not in the same kind of context either, which make his nonsensical argument about their experiences being "different" incredibly invalid.

As for what the hell is wrong with Sam, I think whether or not either Lucifer or Michael is still inhabiting him, Sam has no soul. The concept with souls happen to be an interesting with this show, this season has an example of both demons and angels making deals with humans in exchange for their souls. So that could be one possibility. There's also something to take into account that was mentioned back in S2 when YED had been talking with Dean about whether or not Sam had returned "right"; granted it could have just been a manipulative ploy because hey, demon. But we've seen Sam go from being Sammy to being this douchebag with a chip on his shoulder since then, so I'm wondering what if there's any significance to that statement or if I'm just reaching for something to make sense from the mess we've been getting lately.


New episode tonight, so hopefully we'll find out.

I'm sorry y'all, I'm still very upset about Caprica, that's what's been on my mind lately. I hate to even suggest it, but Syfy has treated Caprica like how FOX treated Firefly, and it depresses and pisses me off. ;__;
 
 
Current Mood: apatheticapathetic
 
 
 
(Deleted comment)
Renée: Castiel. Wings.rogueslayer452 on October 29th, 2010 11:34 am (UTC)
Another thing I've been wondering actually is after saying "yes" to an angel are you forever bound by giving that consent? Like, there are no take-backs from saying it otherwise it wouldn't have been made such a huge deal to begin with.
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexylove_jackianto on October 29th, 2010 03:24 pm (UTC)
'Another thing I've been wondering actually is after saying "yes" to an angel are you forever bound by giving that consent? '
Interesting question.
Kevin Jonesmulder200 on October 29th, 2010 01:45 pm (UTC)
Hm. I get the feeling that the soul is the key here. There was some foreshadowing by Balthazar at one point.
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on October 29th, 2010 02:15 pm (UTC)
Definite foreshadowing going on, and I have a feeling they probably wouldn't have mentioned the angels-taking-souls bit unless there was some significance with whatever is going on. So it could all be linked to however Sam got out, and why.
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexy: SPN- Team Emolove_jackianto on October 29th, 2010 03:26 pm (UTC)
I'm going to have to go with Sam sold his soul. Why else would they make an entire episode out of it? If Sam does end up soulless, I really hope they tie it into Cas' search for Heaven's weapons or at least have Cas be part of that storyline.
Renée: Dean/Castiel. Bittersweet.rogueslayer452 on October 29th, 2010 10:43 pm (UTC)
I did read somewhere that Castiel's storyline is definitely going to be meshing with the main plot down the line and not just separately, so I have no doubts that whatever is going on -- soul-wise or something else -- that Heaven's work is tied with it too.
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexylove_jackianto on October 30th, 2010 02:45 pm (UTC)
Really? That's great!
goldenusagigoldenusagi on October 29th, 2010 04:54 pm (UTC)
I'm guessing Sam wasn't in Hell proper. Wherever Lucifer was locked before, it sounded like he didn't have any contact with demons. The YED had to slaughter a room full of nuns to just *talk* to him.

I'm also wondering if Sam is soulless. It would be interesting, since in the SPN verse people aren't generally up and walking without souls. Whoever has their soul only gets it after the person dies. So maybe they'll have to get Sam's soul back?

Unrelated: I find it somewhat hilarious that you're not a real Winchester unless you've been to Hell. John, Dean, Sam, Adam...
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexylove_jackianto on October 29th, 2010 05:23 pm (UTC)
'Unrelated: I find it somewhat hilarious that you're not a real Winchester unless you've been to Hell. John, Dean, Sam, Adam...'
Does that make Castiel (I gripped you tight and raised you from Hell Perdition) an honorary Winchester? He certainly has come back from the dead enough times to qualify as one.
goldenusagigoldenusagi on October 29th, 2010 05:28 pm (UTC)
He could definitely be an honorary Winchester for that! He could also be one by moving in with Dean
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexylove_jackianto on October 29th, 2010 05:40 pm (UTC)
He could also be one by moving in with Dean
True, true. It would be like the Odd Couple.
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on October 30th, 2010 12:56 am (UTC)
Exactly. So it has to be solitary confinement otherwise that entire dealio with Lucifer was just retconned in order to create some ~conflict~ between Sam and Dean which, enough already with that show. Dead horse, you're beating it too much.

What's interesting is how sometimes he seems like Sam but other times he just isn't. Unless this is another one of those things like how Meg possessed Sam and is acting like him kind of deals, and Sam is locked away somewhere or his soul is elsewhere or something along those lines. The thing with this is that there needs to be something explained, at least if not entirely than hinted at soon because I'm getting tired of all this "Sam is wrong" schtick they've already done time and again.

I find it somewhat hilarious that you're not a real Winchester unless you've been to Hell. John, Dean, Sam, Adam...

There needed to be a similar connection to them all. Of course Adam gets the short end of the stick, nobody seems to remember him....
goldenusagigoldenusagi on October 30th, 2010 01:11 am (UTC)
Heh. This show would beat the dead horse, and then kill it's ghost.

There does need to be something explained. Let's hope the episode I'm watching now does it!


What's interesting is how sometimes he seems like Sam but other times he just isn't.


Yeah this. He's on and off.
as good as baby Jesus in velvet pants: impalahigh_flyer87 on October 29th, 2010 05:44 pm (UTC)
With them introducing the whole "angels can take souls too" idea, I definitely think we're dealing with a misplaced soul here. Whether he sold it or if Lucifer's just keeping it nice and warm for him, idk.

Lucifer is an angel after all.

I say, he either called keeps on Sam's soul, or Sam traded it in exchange for freedom.

But this whole Sam in Hell thing has really bothered me from the get-go. His experience was technically was different from Dean's--drastically so, if we're taking his word that he was only down there for a very short amount of time, plus the fact that Lucifer's cage is completely different from the General Admission section of Hell. There's just something so dodgy about it all. And I'm tired of the goddamn secrets. I think it's time to spill the beans and let us know what's going on. Otherwise...I will lose interest.
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on October 29th, 2010 11:07 pm (UTC)
I think sometimes people forget that Lucifer is an angel, and a very manipulative one at that; he's able to get underneath your skin and really try and connect with you, so there's definitely a high possibility that whatever happened Sam made a deal with Lucifer in exchange for that freedom and maybe he doesn't even remember. Or that he does, he's just lying straight through his teeth.

The whole thing about him being in Hell is definitely dodgy, and I hope they don't drag it out with all these secrets because the entire thing of ~~Sam is keeping sekrits from Dean~~ has been overdone. Just let us know what is going on and move on with that, okay show? I've lost interest in the entire thing since the premiere because I knew they were rehashing it all over again.

Move forward, not backwards.
Tracy: Cas BAMF Entrancealexwhitman25 on October 29th, 2010 06:00 pm (UTC)
The soul yammering anvils made it pretty obvious that something is up with Sam's soul. Just what, I do not know. He still seems Sam-like at times, he just seems to have no empathy and is willing to do whatever it takes to get things done. But I like New!Sam, so I don't know.

He couldn't have been in hell very long, I'm thinking a couple of days at most. He says he was out almost a whole year. I think being in the Cage is totally different than what Dean went through and most likely involved more mental torture than physical. I wonder if all that demon blood he ingested also played a part in this.

ETA: I don't think we'll be getting lots of answers tonight, I think this is gonna drag out most of the season.

Edited at 2010-10-29 06:01 pm (UTC)
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on October 30th, 2010 01:17 am (UTC)
It's just very confusing, because some are like but he's totally still Sam! but then there's that bit of him that isn't. There's no empathy, nothing that resembles how the normal Sam would have acted/reacted. It's just so weird that I don't know what to think.

That's also a good question about the demon blood. All these things they have to acknowledge because seriously, why didn't Dean even ask whatever happened with Lucifer after seeing him in the premiere? Or question about Adam? There's all these loose ends they didn't even bother connecting together so, idk.

Ugh, I seriously think they have to stop dragging it out because it's not suspenseful or keeping us on our toes. It's just annoying.
(Deleted comment)
Renée: Castiel. Whumped :(rogueslayer452 on October 29th, 2010 10:41 pm (UTC)
It's worse with the naysayers, I've encountered several and they are the most pessimistic bunch I've ever seen. :/
kaiyote: SILENTHILL ▪ wtfkaiyote on October 29th, 2010 08:21 pm (UTC)
As for Lucifer's cage I really have no idea, but I did always assume it was basically the equivalent to solitary confinement. I have a sneaking suspicion that Supernatural is going to retcon the fuck out of the, like, things we know about the cage tho. blegh.

And I really have no idea what's wrong with Sam either but it is pretty damn obvious at this point that it has something to do with his soul. SO WHY ARE THEY DRAGGING OUT SO DAMN MUCH.

I personally like my idea that however Sam got out of the cage it shredded his soul and other souls in hell were used to like "patch up" his own.

...but that is also a fanfic idea, lol, and I think the whole "Sam doesn't have his soul anymore (for some reason)" is more viable.
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on October 29th, 2010 10:40 pm (UTC)
I have no doubts that they're retcon it because that's what they do, unfortunately. However I think it's important to distinguish the Hell Dean went through and the place Sam had vanished into because, as we all remember, demons probably didn't even have contact with Lucifer while he was caged hence why Yellow Eyes had to kill nuns in some ritual in order to just speak with him. So I have no idea if they're going to address that or not.

I hate that they're dragging it out, either give us something to go on or just move on from it we don't need every single damn episode featuring the question of WHAT IS WRONG WITH SAM because that gets tired real quick.

I personally like my idea that however Sam got out of the cage it shredded his soul and other souls in hell were used to like "patch up" his own.

That would make an interested story idea, not gonna lie.
kaiyotekaiyote on October 30th, 2010 12:14 am (UTC)
I know, I wish they'd like...clarify the difference between Hell and Lucifer's cage. Because it seems to me that they'd be pretty wildly different. Like, I know I've said this before somewhere, but people keep acting/saying/writing like Sam got tortured by demons in Hell and I'm like...



I don't think it (should) work that way... And even more so since no demon really ever HAD seen Lucifer or even knew for a fact that he existed (besides Azazel). :|

IKR. Pluuus it's pretty old hat by now. I mean, every season is basically "SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH SAM", so could we at least attempt to try something new or get on with it already? (I personally vote for the something new...)

Yeah! I was reading a prompt for the one gen horror prompt meme and it made me think of that idea. If I were less lazy (and actually felt like I had a handle on the characters (especially Sam)) I would attempt to write it.
Renée: Castiel. Searching for answers.rogueslayer452 on October 30th, 2010 01:03 am (UTC)
I think some people just want there to be a similar ~~connection~~ between the brothers again, which is what some fans were complaining about during the fourth season (mostly the Dean/Sam shippers, but that's neither here nor there), so they make it seem like Sam had gone through the same as Dean in Hell or something. Which that couldn't be farther from the truth, at least from what's been indicating by the show itself.

I don't think it (should) work that way... And even more so since no demon really ever HAD seen Lucifer or even knew for a fact that he existed (besides Azazel). :|

Exactly! To many demons Lucifer was a belief system, so if Sam went directly into the cage where Lucifer had been held then he wouldn't have had the same thing Dean endured. Sure, it's Hell, but a different kind of Hell.

I guess when they wanted to "reset" the show they probably meant it literally. Like with that premiere which seemed similar to the pilot, and how Sam isn't right and Dean is all "omg how can this be!!11" because yeah, after all the shit that's happened you have to ask that. -_-

This is why I wished the show ended at S5 because really, there's no where else to go if they're heading in this direction. We want something new and different, not different but the same shit all over again. I am, however, intrigued by the angel civil war in Heaven, everything else is more blah to me at the moment.
Becky: SPN: Lol!Dean & Casbeckytheelf on October 30th, 2010 05:26 am (UTC)
GIIIIIIIIIIIRL, YOU A PSYCHIC. I JUST HOPE YOU DON'T DRINK DEMON BLOOD IN YOUR SPARE TIME. Or I'm gonna have to get Cas to lay down some heavy duty smiting but I think you would enjoy that =P
ALSO BY NOW I HOPE YOU SAW THE PREVIEW FOR NEXT WEEK. TELL ME YOU DID. I SWEAR TO GOD SUPERNATURAL IS TURNING ME INTO THIS RANDOM PERSON. LOLOLOL.
Renée: Dean/Castiel. Closer.rogueslayer452 on October 30th, 2010 05:45 am (UTC)
I TOTALLY AM PSYCHIC. AND I DON'T THINK I'M DRINKING DEMON BLOOD (unless that V8 Fusion is lying to me...) BUT I TOTALLY DON'T MIND CASTIEL LAYING DOWN THE LAW AT ME AND TOUCHING MY SOUL OR SOMETHING TO "CLEANSE" ME, LOL! ;D

I SAW IT! MORE SURPRISE!CAS IS ALWAYS WELCOME! :DDDDD