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29 March 2011 @ 08:31 am
Opinion on the Sucker Punch controversy.  
I highly recommend reading this person's views and debunking of the arguments against the film which are perfectly articulated, however I do have some additional commentary and opinions of my own.

Everyone interprets things differently, have different perceptions and we're not always going to agree about everything. Some will like or possibly love a film, others won't. That's totally fine, to each their own and all of that jazz. But the amount of critical accusations against Sucker Punch are getting rather ridiculous, particularly the claims about it being "misogynistic" and "anti-feminist" and "exploitative of women." Throughout the film I never saw anything suggesting that, in fact I saw the exact opposite. While there are darker themes it's a fantastical world which deals with the coping mechanisms of those trapped in an ugly reality, and handling it with the power of their minds. That's it. While there may be some flaws here and there, overall there's nothing anti-women about it from where I stand.

Oh, and I also don't appreciate being accused of "supporting sexism against women" because I enjoyed the film or because don't agree with your stances. If I was entertained or felt empowered by such things, then that is my right. Don't say I'm wrong just because I don't agree with your viewpoints, and don't tell me how to feel because I am a woman and should feel "ashamed" for liking something that you disagree with.

Don't fucking speak for me, or for any other woman out there as a matter of fact.

Sucker Punch is no Black Swan or Inception by any means, but there is a story being told and a message that is being conveyed. At the end of the day, it's a fun action-packed fantastical world where girls are kicking ass. And what's wrong with that? Furthermore, what's wrong with a little campy fun in films without it getting mobbed by critics? Why does everything have to be either extraordinary or godawful to the point where everyone is bashing it all to hell? I don't get it. Why can't we have a happy medium, where something is kickass, visually stunning and fun at the same time?

Bottom line: Don't listen to critics who don't know shit, and don't follow the line of bitter reviewers. Just watch and judge for yourself and make your own opinions based on what you go into the movie for and what you yourself take out from it.
 
 
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Revyallodole on March 29th, 2011 04:09 pm (UTC)
I haven't seen it yet, but I.. I have no idea how anyone could see it as ANTI-FEMINIST BOOOO o__- Isn't it more like the exact opposite?

.. Hah, I'll probably like Sucker Punch more than I liked Inception or Black Swan. (Former was awesome but I guess the hype killed part of my enjoyment, latter was kinda meh aside from some interesting/beautiful scenes)

Why does everything have to be either extraordinary or godawful to the point where everyone is bashing it all to hell?
SERIOUSLY. THIS. SO MUCH. It's like you absolutely can't enjoy these sort of "mindless" entertaiment-movies which may not have a ~MINDBLOWING~ plot or well-known Oscar-nominated gorgeous actors but are still fun to watch. It's like everything has to be artsy or have complicated plots to be considered a "good movie." For me, a good movie is something that I enjoy watching and I can say afterwards that (even if and when the movie had flaws) I liked it. Some movies are made to be enjoyed, why does everything have to be deeply analysed etc etc.

IDGI, I can like Kill Bill as much as I like Donnie Darko.
Renée: Sucker Punch. Open your mind.rogueslayer452 on March 29th, 2011 04:28 pm (UTC)
I haven't seen it yet, but I.. I have no idea how anyone could see it as ANTI-FEMINIST BOOOO o__- Isn't it more like the exact opposite?

I thought so, even by watching the trailers I knew it was more catering towards girl power and taking control of themselves and overcoming certain obstacles than the claims these people are making. I know people's opinions will clash on things, but I just don't see where the anti-feminism is coming from. Unless people are just looking at the surface rather than understanding the context of what is happening in the movie (which once you watch it will understand it isn't simply black and white.)

It's not a perfect film by any means, but it certainly isn't deserving of the criticism and accusations it's been getting on that kind of level. Like, wha? Where are y'all getting those things from? idgi. :/

For me, a good movie is something that I enjoy watching and I can say afterwards that (even if and when the movie had flaws) I liked it. Some movies are made to be enjoyed, why does everything have to be deeply analysed etc etc.

Exactly! There are plenty of movies I love and enjoy that aren't Oscar-worthy and definitely not exactly the greatest by critic-standards, but I like what I like and that's good enough for me. While this movie has certain question marks hidden within it, especially towards the end, the message is pretty clear and overall I did enjoy it for what is was. Can't that just be enough?
Revyallodole on March 29th, 2011 04:48 pm (UTC)
I think radical feminists and such always see anti-feminism and misogynism pretty much everywhere- even where there's no such things. That's what I feel.

God forbid there be a woman enjoying her sexuality in a movie!

Apparently it's not enough. How dare someone have a different opinion! What's a good movie to Person X is not a good movie to Person Y. I don't understand how that is so difficult to understand at this day and age.
Renée: Sucker Punch. Baby Doll.rogueslayer452 on March 29th, 2011 04:59 pm (UTC)
That is very true, indeed. :/ Some are even suggesting that girls in scantily clan outfits is anti-feminist since it caters to the male gaze and that's sexism!

....

Sense, these people no make.

I celebrate women taking control of their sexuality, discovering themselves and kicking ass at the same time. And if to them that's wrong, then I definitely don't want to be right
Revyallodole on March 29th, 2011 05:46 pm (UTC)
Perhaps all women should be covered from head to toe then. >__> Grrr.

Yes to all of this.
Renée: Six. It's good to be a Cylon.rogueslayer452 on March 29th, 2011 10:43 pm (UTC)
It really astounds me the double standard that occurs. Why is it okay for men to be in movies, like 300 for example, where they are running around shirtless all the time and being just as campy in the kind of stylistic nature of the film itself and be praised and oogled for it -- but when you replace them with women in the exact same situation they are immediately deemed as inappropriate?

That just doesn't make sense to me, especially when these so-called radical feminists claim to be all about women's rights and yet criticism and judge women for what they wear. -__-
Revyallodole on March 30th, 2011 12:40 am (UTC)
I really have no idea. Fucking world, how do you work?? (I really loved 300 though.)

Lolol exactly. They are the reason why I cringe every time I hear the word feminist lately.
philstar22philstar22 on March 30th, 2011 12:52 am (UTC)
What people wear says nothing about how feminist they are. I'm all for girls dressing scantily. It would be nice if men did the same. :)
Revyallodole on March 30th, 2011 01:10 am (UTC)
Mmm yes to men with less clothing. .. What. Depends on the guy. /shrug
philstar22philstar22 on March 30th, 2011 12:47 am (UTC)
I agree. If a particular girl wants to express her sexuality through dressing sexy and wanting to turn on guys, that is awesome. The only problem I ever have is when it is suggested that the sexuality of all girls is just like that. Because mine is nothing like that. But power to women expressing their sexuality however they choose.
Revyallodole on March 30th, 2011 12:57 am (UTC)
The trouble arises when such a person is taunted- how easily does a scantily clad woman become a slut these days. I don't understand how hard it's to let women express their sexuality the way they want to. If it's the way of dressing in skimpy clothing, why the hell not?
philstar22philstar22 on March 30th, 2011 01:03 am (UTC)
Agreed. And also, isn't it kind of sexist to even say that a scantily clad women is just wearing what she does to attract men/express her sexuality? Maybe she just thinks the clothes are pretty. Maybe she just don't see covering her body as important.
Revyallodole on March 30th, 2011 01:09 am (UTC)
Exactly! It's like women should always cover themselves up so that some prude won't get their precious feelings hurt by showing some bare skin. A woman can do what she wants, especially when it comes to such a life-changing factor as clothing, for fuck's sake.
Renée: Six. Seductress.rogueslayer452 on March 30th, 2011 10:56 am (UTC)
Another thing to add is what empowers the individual. If a woman finds herself more confident wearing sexy clothing and exploring and being comfortable in her sexuality, that's perfectly fine. If a woman finds herself feeling more confident just wearing baggy pants, a t-shirt and her hair in a messy ponytail, that's also perfectly okay as well. There is no "right way" or "wrong way" when it comes to what someone finds empowering. Some might not agree with someone's choices, but they aren't that person. Only they have the right to determine what they like or dislike, what makes them feel confident and or empowered.

And there's nothing wrong with that, at all. The double standard in judgmental calls by these so-called feminists is rather disturbing.
Revyallodole on March 30th, 2011 04:38 pm (UTC)
Yes to all of this.
bloodyfire: Al F-yabloodyfire on March 29th, 2011 04:38 pm (UTC)
well I can't say I've even considered looking for reviews or caring what they were but suckerpunch to me was fantastic, it was like several things in my own mind exploded onto the screen it was agreat watch I loved the story the idea the way it was portrayed and hell yes watching women kick fucking ass <3
Renée: Sucker Punch. Open your mind.rogueslayer452 on March 29th, 2011 05:03 pm (UTC)
I didn't bother either until after I saw the film, because there were many people discussing their either likes or dislikes of it. I came across a couple that were all OMG FEMINIST RAGE! and ranting about the film. I tried making sense of what they were saying, but I really couldn't because it was just lots of things that I didn't have issues with at all.

But I loved the movie. It was a fantastic piece of escapism filled with everything I could possibly want. I liked it for what it was, and that's that. ;)
bloodyfire: STFUbloodyfire on March 29th, 2011 05:54 pm (UTC)
I agree entirely I had some epic nerdgasms in my pants over the movie I can't wait to buy it when it comes out ^_^
Encyclopædia Clevernamethefreshchuff on March 29th, 2011 06:07 pm (UTC)
A+ POST, WOULD READ AGAIN.

To me, it doesn't even feel like people calling Sucker Punch anti-feminist really even watched it. I identified more with these girls than I do to most female characters. Yes, they were in short skirts -- is that all people are seeing? If you look just at the surface, maybe it does just look like a "beautiful women in skimpy clothes blow shit up" kind of movie, but that IS only at the surface. There's a lot more going on, the characters are well rounded and interesting. It's a story about survival against exploration and powerlessness, for crying out loud! It's so OPPOSITE these negative claims, it's ridiculous!

Also, and I just have to say, it kind of pisses me off too that this kind of shit happens for like, every movie and every TV. Someone claiming misogyny, people flipping out. IDK it's just all taken so SERIOUSLY when it's, you know, a TV show or movie. There are actual terrible things happening to actual women every day in countries around the world, is it really worth our energy and attention to be concentrating on whats happening to the fictional ones?

But honestly. Not every movie directed by a guy and staring women in flashy clothes is an attack towards all womenkind. Sometimes, it's just a movie.
Renée: Echo. I can take care of myself.rogueslayer452 on March 30th, 2011 05:11 pm (UTC)
Thanks, bb. :) I just feel so strongly about this because not only did I love and enjoy the movie, but I feel like these people are directing their opinionated viewpoints in the wrong place and clearly don't have a clear grasp on what they are actually arguing about. It's obvious that the majority either saw a completely different movie through their blinders or the fact that they haven't seen the movie at all and are just basing it through the promotion advertisements and trailers. If the latter, they really have no say.

I also feel like for those that have seen it seem to think the film caters or rather supports rape culture because of the situation the girls are in and what occurs in the film. For those people, I say they only saw what they wanted to see and not look at the entire story from an overall perspective, or follow what was being told from beginning to end. What they saw were young women in a fantastical world, dressed scantily and being held by their oppressors. Some are even upset that there wasn't an indicator about what was reality and what was fantasy -- hello, that was the entire point. It leaves a huge question mark for us to decipher, and the entire film was a huge metaphor.

I just don't know with these people. I understand some may have genuine concerns about the themes presented, perhaps because they were triggered (the theme of abuse, for example) but otherwise? The rest of the arguments fall flat, imo, and are completely ridiculous.
Filomena: BARBIE OF COURSEaubade_saudade on March 29th, 2011 08:10 pm (UTC)
i think there's this misunderstanding by some brand spankin' new feministas that girls who are sexy or who dress sexy do so to perform for the male gaze, like men are the only ones interested in female sexuality/beauty? there's also a misunderstanding by the mainstream that women who wear heels and short skirts are rejected by feminists.

that bull sure can shit.

i like girls in short skirts, i like women who show a little skin, i like to look at pretty chicas in pigtails. i also like women who cover up, who leave stuff to the imagination. it all depends on whether you carry it well and what yr intentions are. i refuse to consider this film antifeminist just because the characters daisy duke it ...i also refuse to consider a film feminist just because it pays superficial homage to yougirlism and Ellen Page is in it wearing baggy clothes and dorky glasses. it's all about context...besides, Black Swan --to me-- had a lot more problematic shit going on than Sucker Punch even if Sucker Punch works better as a metaphor than as a narrative. in fact, i'd say BS and Inception both work better as metaphors than narratives. (plus some of the dialogue in Inception--which i love-- is kind of cringe-worthy.)


just sayin'...

sry for mult'edits xP

Edited at 2011-03-29 08:13 pm (UTC)
Renée: Baby Doll. Where is my mind?rogueslayer452 on March 29th, 2011 10:36 pm (UTC)
There's loads of confusion and weight with the entire word of "feminism" these days, and it's rather interesting how careful you have to define yourself if you consider yourself a feminist. It's interesting to see both sides of the feminist side making a "correct" definition of feminism. It gets tiring and annoying watching it unfold, really. Just reading some reviews in regards to this film for example was stressful enough since it was obvious they are wanting to draw attention to something that really isn't there in the first place.

It's kind of remarkable the things people will look for to nitpick and rant upon if they don't like it. And ITA with you, it really is about context and some really need to understand that. Just because what you see on the surface isn't always what it appears to be beneath that surface.
Filomena: *omg 2nd hand embarrrrrrrrrrasssssed*aubade_saudade on March 29th, 2011 11:24 pm (UTC)
to me, being a feminist is about knowing i'm not a second class human being because i was born with a vagina, since i'm not a second class human being i deserve the same rights. crystal clear. i love men, i love women, i like to fix my nails, fix my hair, and though i mostly go for comfort in my everyday clothes, when i go out i like to wear my little heels and my little skirt and girl it up and that's nobody's business but mine.

i think that a lot of people use their movements to wallow and air out their personal dramas disguising it as deconstruction and meta and whatnot. misdirected anger. it's like when daddy gets cut off in traffic and then snaps at mommy and mommy snaps at Billy and Billy kicks the pet. except these people have blogs. =/
Renée: Sucker Punch. Baby Doll.rogueslayer452 on March 30th, 2011 10:41 am (UTC)
Word to everything about the definition of feminism. I share the same views, as well. ♥ I really dislike how people shape and mold things to fit into their own personal agenda on what they think feminism should be and that it's the one and only true way to be, and everyone has to agree to those views otherwise you are giving into patriarchal society. What sense that does make?

It really is misdirected anger, I agree.

Edited at 2011-03-30 10:41 am (UTC)
Kevin Jonesmulder200 on March 29th, 2011 09:59 pm (UTC)
Antifeminist? How do they figure that? If anything, the movie is PRO-feminist!

Sucker Punch is no Black Swan or Inception by any means, but there is a story being told and a message that is being conveyed. At the end of the day, it's a fun action-packed fantastical world where girls are kicking ass. And what's wrong with that? Furthermore, what's wrong with a little campy fun in films without it getting mobbed by critics? Why does everything have to be either extraordinary or godawful to the point where everyone is bashing it all to hell? I don't get it. Why can't we have a happy medium, where something is kickass, visually stunning and fun at the same time?

Word!
Renée: BSG. Number Six.rogueslayer452 on March 29th, 2011 10:20 pm (UTC)
My thoughts precisely. I mean, the entire film is centered around these girls who are fighting against their male oppressors, to which all the men in the film are portrayed in a poor light (aside from the Wise Man guide throughout) If that isn't siding with women, I don't know what is. :/
avaserenity: actor: jgl's rideavaserenity on March 29th, 2011 11:38 pm (UTC)
I totally agree. I saw the exact opposite of anti-feminism with Sucker Punch. I think most of the it's against women argument hinges on the outfits they where within and outside dreamscape. Which again is very far from what i saw.

Renée: Baby Doll. Where is my mind?rogueslayer452 on March 30th, 2011 07:54 am (UTC)
A combination of the outfits plus seeing them in a burlesque/whorehouse fantasy, which many are suggesting that it was Zack Snyder's fantasy to get his jollies off (which, wtf?), and not really seeing or even understanding the context of what is going on within these dreamscapes and what it all represented -- most of which were parallels of what was really happening in the actual reality. They didn't watch the movie, they watched something hoping to be politically correct and got disappointed then started reaching for contrived arguments to make some kind of point or something.
ashley: ϟ | a tourist in the waking worldkitsu84 on March 30th, 2011 12:40 am (UTC)
Since when did it become anti-feminist for women to kick some major ass, and look fantastic while doing so? I'm confused. :/

I, for one, loved the movie. It isn't listed amongst my top ten favorites or anything, but I did enjoy it immensely and I'm looking forward to getting it on DVD so I can watch it a hundred times on my HDTV. It was entertaining - plain and simple. This whole argument of the film being misogynistic is completely unfounded, and frankly, it pisses me the fuck off. These girls went through hell while at that facility until it finally got to the point where they had had enough. They finally took a stand and overcame their oppressors - men. Now, it may just be me, but that screams girl power.

Another thing, I don't take too kindly to being accused of supporting sexism simply because I enjoyed the film either. My god, people, it was a movie. With everything else happening in the world, they're expending so much energy just to tear down a freaking movie? ... Jesus Christ.
Renée: Sucker Punch. Ready to fight.rogueslayer452 on March 30th, 2011 04:57 pm (UTC)
Pretty much everything you just said, exactly.

I know that people interpret things differently but the level of these arguments seems very far-fetched, as if they are purposefully reaching for something to misdirect their anger towards just for the sake of it. Also, I partially blame the marketing strategy during promos where it seems like many people were already catering to the male demographic just to amp up opening weekend sales. Even though I didn't view it as such, unfortunately our society has it ingrained that skimpy schoolgirl uniforms = sexual objects, and radical feminists will automatically make the connection that girls in those kinds of outfits cater to the male gaze, hence the complaining and ranting. Add in whorehouse paralleling the mental asylum and they feel justified in making such arguments against the film.

I don't know. I feel like this could have been avoided somehow, but then I realize that the radicals would have made the same conclusions anyway. It sucks because the film is obviously just a fun action-fantasy flick, with (what I thought) empowering messages with the girls kicking ass.

It's just a whole mess with these people, and it really fucking pisses me off that there's this controversy in the first place.
philstar22: Feminismphilstar22 on March 30th, 2011 12:42 am (UTC)
You know, I was kind of worried about it. Because I got the sense from the trailer nd the descriptions that it was all about male fantasy being portrayed as female fantasy. And that kind of bugged me.

But I went and saw it anyway, and I'm glad I did because it really wasn't like tht at all. Oh, there was some typical objectification that is pretty much impopssible to avoid unless you don't ever see movies. But these were well-rounded female characters who were strong in their own right. They weren't portrayed as object or as seeing themselves as objects. It wasn't all about how hot they were and all about the male point of view. It was about them.
Renée: Baby Doll. Where is my mind?rogueslayer452 on March 30th, 2011 09:38 am (UTC)
But these were well-rounded female characters who were strong in their own right. They weren't portrayed as object or as seeing themselves as objects. It wasn't all about how hot they were and all about the male point of view. It was about them.

My thoughts exactly.

I mainly think some are merely looking on the surface without taking into consideration the themes and parallels the film presented to us, and more importantly it was about their struggle on fighting against their male oppressors and being strong-willed in the process. It was about them, not the men.

The ending was bittersweet at best, if a bit mind-boggling at first due to the darker themes that are seen (and after reading what was forcefully taken out in the final cut, it entire story and journey makes even more sense and I appreciate what was being told even more), but it got the point across with the journey they are going through.
the infraggable crunkblualbino on March 30th, 2011 05:40 am (UTC)
Yeah, haven't seen Sucker Punch yet (I'm going thursday!!!!) but so very this :/ A movie with an almost all girl cast that kicks ass and takes names is... unfeminist? Really? HOW.

If this is about the outfits than fuck everything. Hell, shouldn't that make it more feminist if they don't have to be butch to be awesome?

Why does everything have to be either extraordinary or godawful to the point where everyone is bashing it all to hell?

GOD YES THANK YOU. %90 of my favorite movies aren't ~*~omg spectacular~*~, they're regular, entertaining movies that are a nice way to kill an hour or two. What's wrong with that?
Renée: Sucker Punch. Baby Doll.rogueslayer452 on March 30th, 2011 09:33 am (UTC)
I think people are hung up on the fact that girls in such outfits plus the atmosphere of one of the dreamscapes inside Baby Doll's mind being a burlesque/whorehouse setting equals catering to the male gaze, therefore it's automatically dehumanizing and objectifying them. Never mind the fact that nearly all the men featured in the film are seen as monsters, the girls finally decide to strike back and escape and take control over themselves and create their own destiny.

IMO, I support the sexy women taking control of themselves and their sexuality and using it as weapons against their oppressors. There is absolutely nothing anti-feminist about that.

(besides, the term "feminist" has been altered by these so-called women who seem to think certain things should define one as a feminist -- hell, there are people who think Buffy the Vampire Slayer is misogynistic which, yeah, idek)
Nicole: HUH??? [will]trillianastra on April 3rd, 2011 08:16 pm (UTC)
....there are people out there who think BtVS is misogynistic?

That's.... new. Also, utterly, utterly baffling.
Renée: BTVS. Buffy Summers.rogueslayer452 on April 3rd, 2011 09:09 pm (UTC)
It is baffling. There are hardcore radical feminists out there that believe that Joss Whedon is anti-women and sexist. Someone even did an essay about how Firefly was misogynistic and sexist against woman, advocating rape, etc. Irrational and batshit, these views are. :/

Perhaps those same people are the ones complaining about Sucker Punch....
just a small town girl: [supernatural] mary winchestercarameltrap on March 30th, 2011 06:26 am (UTC)
Fuck yes. You said it so much better and more articulately than I ever could. A+ for it all.

Why does everything have to be either extraordinary or godawful to the point where everyone is bashing it all to hell?
Yeah, I don't get this. Half of the movies I've watched aren't even the artistic or thought provoking types and yet they are the best I've ever watched because they did their job and took me away to another reality and let me forget about stress or other problems.
Renée: Sucker Punch. Open your mind.rogueslayer452 on March 30th, 2011 09:09 am (UTC)
Thanks, bb. It's funny, since I hardly ever pay attention to what critics or other reviewers are saying about films that I have liked. It's usually the "I liked it, they didn't, that's that" kind of deal. But then this blowup happened and it really got to me because I'm trying to understand where this perception is coming from. It just bothers me how this is the immediate assumption.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I like what I like because it personally appeals to my interests. It shouldn't be a politically correct competition.
forwardishforwardish on April 1st, 2011 03:52 am (UTC)
It's girls kicking ass as a form of escapism from the tragedy of their situation... if they weren't kicking ass, people would talk about how tragic it was and it'd get rave reviews for being all fucked up, but they are kicking ass and imprisoned so it's anti-women? And I haven't even seen it yet.

I feel like this has more to do with the way they look sexualized maybe? In which case, um, HAVE YOU PEOPLE SEEN ACTION MOVIES? We do that to our men too. And I enjoy that.

Well, I happen to enjoy the women too, but you know. PRETTY MANLY MEN ALL DIRTY IN RIPPED CLOTHING IS ALSO OBJECTIFYING...

Only I DO.NOT.CARE!

I think there is power to be found in that actually.
Renée: Sucker Punch. Ready to fight.rogueslayer452 on April 1st, 2011 06:28 am (UTC)
I feel like this has more to do with the way they look sexualized maybe? In which case, um, HAVE YOU PEOPLE SEEN ACTION MOVIES? We do that to our men too. And I enjoy that.

I definitely think that is a huge factor in this, yes. Of course this makes me wonder about other action-fantasy films that have women in such scantily clad outfits and in similar situations, and whether these so-called feminists have the same immediate reaction...or is it different because Sucker Punch is all female-based and, how dare they try to claim this to be empowering! These girls are in fantasy-type clothing that sexualizes them! The nerve of this male director! *rolls eyes*

Re: the objectifying thing, I think many feminists feel that men in similar situations are different because they don't care, since men aren't oppressed in that way, whereas women have a history of being viewed as sexual objects therefore using such imagery (sexy schoolgirl uniforms, scantily dressed inside of a brothel, etc) is notorious of women being both objectified and victimized for the male gaze. However, in the film that may be what one sees on the surface, but the entire time it is the girls who are taking control and the power, using it to their advantage and taking back what their male oppressors are taking away from them and fighting for their freedom. So really, I can see where people can have issues with it, but the story itself doesn't revolve around the men, it revolves around the girls.

Honestly, it's ridiculous and I feel horrible for the backlash it has been receiving, because I really loved the film and I felt it's something people really need to step back and stop being so heavily critical about. It's pure escapism, it's not a politically correct kind of movie. It's about the girls and their stories, which yes is kind of dark and bittersweet underneath the fantastical layers but really, I would have been disappointed if there hadn't been considering how everything was an allegory in the first place.

Judging from the interviews with the actresses, they all felt empowered and revved up from filming. I felt empowered and wanting to be all kickass actiony once I left the theater. Isn't that what the entire point was about? idgi....
forwardishforwardish on April 1st, 2011 06:38 am (UTC)
Yeah, that's something people bring up in classes I've taken with gender studies issues, because men aren't oppressed. I think it depends on context. Like, terminatrix's BOOBS growing in T3 was kind of unnecessary and crass to me, but also kind of hilarious? IDK.

It bothers me when people complain about the sexualization of women taking control of things and being BAMFs because as a woman, I think that is in fact SEXY and empowering, and so there's nothing wrong with expressing that in leather and stillettos... not practical, but action sequences and scenes never are.

Hey, I actually liked catwoman's outfit though.
Renée: Six. Seductress.rogueslayer452 on April 1st, 2011 07:31 am (UTC)
It bothers me when people complain about the sexualization of women taking control of things and being BAMFs because as a woman, I think that is in fact SEXY and empowering, and so there's nothing wrong with expressing that in leather and stillettos... not practical, but action sequences and scenes never are.

Word, to all of this.

Watching the film where women are kicking ass and taking control, and wearing bamf!outfits in the process? That's a total win for me. I feel empowered seeing women being badass and taking back that control, and using such devices to manipulate and defeat their male oppressors, which is precisely what the girls in this film were doing. I think these people who end up complaining are overanalyzing far too much.
Nicole: cylon grandma [zoey]trillianastra on April 3rd, 2011 08:21 pm (UTC)
I'm just going to agree with your whole post...

...actually, I will add one thing. It's to do with another of Zach Snyder's films, 300. A film which, if I remember correctly, is populated with a lot of men, many of whom are presented in a very sexualised way.

So here's what I'd like to ask the *radical feminists*: why do they think it's OK to show men dressed in revealing clothes but not women?

(it's stuff like this that makes me think that there's more sexism amongst the feminists than among the people they're calling sexist. I could be wrong, but they don't seem to like women that much, you know?)
fix me, motherfucker! i'm standing right here.immortality on April 3rd, 2011 09:00 pm (UTC)
Hijacking your comment thread --

it's stuff like this that makes me think that there's more sexism amongst the feminists than among the people they're calling sexist.

This, exactly.
Renée: Caprica. Zoe Graystone.rogueslayer452 on April 3rd, 2011 09:34 pm (UTC)
So here's what I'd like to ask the *radical feminists*: why do they think it's OK to show men dressed in revealing clothes but not women?

I think perhaps it could be because men aren't viewed in the same fashion as women are in the same context. Women have a history of being objectified for entertainment of the male gaze, being sexualized for that main purpose alone. So having men being sexualized and in revealing clothes doesn't hold the same weight. Does that make sense?

it's stuff like this that makes me think that there's more sexism amongst the feminists than among the people they're calling sexist. I could be wrong, but they don't seem to like women that much, you know?

This is very true, especially the radical feminists who want to dictate what other women should do by their definition of what a feminist should be. They are super contradictory because they say they are pro-woman, and yet they are very anti-woman at the same time because they feel like women cannot do certain things because it is demeaning to what women should be, and blah blah blah. It's infuriating and ridiculous. Here with Sucker Punch, I've seen so many viewpoints focused on the outfits the girls are wearing and it's like, really? You're focusing on that? None of those outfits are even that revealing. And regardless, if they are wearing those outfits and being empowered and badass, shouldn't that say something? I don't get that kind of mindset that a woman can't be empowered while wearing high heels and make-up.
fix me, motherfucker! i'm standing right here.immortality on April 3rd, 2011 08:58 pm (UTC)
[came here from your link in the SP comm.]

Furthermore, what's wrong with a little campy fun in films without it getting mobbed by critics? Why does everything have to be either extraordinary or godawful to the point where everyone is bashing it all to hell? I don't get it. Why can't we have a happy medium, where something is kickass, visually stunning and fun at the same time?

MOVIES ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS OKAY. Seriously, it's like movies aren't allowed to be fun anymore.

I love your post here. I really don't know why so many people have latched onto the whole "this is a sexist movie" idea. It's funny; I've seen a great deal of mansplaining about why this movie is totally sexist and why women should hate it ... when I read that I thought, 'oh, I bet a lot of feminist reviewers really like it,' but apparently they don't?

I can get it if people find it triggering and that is the cause for their dislike, but, while there IS misogyny in the film, the film itself is not misogynistic. Which I think is something that a lot of people just aren't getting. (Tbh, I feel like a lot of people went in thinking the movie would anti-women and thus were absolutely determined to hate it and not even try and understand what the movie was saying and what it was trying to do.)
Renée: Sucker Punch. Ready to fight.rogueslayer452 on April 4th, 2011 09:51 pm (UTC)
It's odd how critics seem to rate movies simply whether there's a deeper meaning behind it, and if not then it sucks. Srs bsns indeed. :/

I'm quite baffled at how feminists seem to deem this sexist as well, even suggesting that no woman should ever watch it because it's very anti-women. I never got that implication, from the previews or from the film itself, and I consider myself incredibly pro-woman and I do call out the sexist bullshit when I see it. Sucker Punch however? Never got on that radar and I'm still majorly confused as to why it did with others. Is it simply because of what the girls are wearing? The context of where the girls are, for example the brothel? Because that's the only things I see people complaining about, and to be frank, I find that rather ridiculous because they are overlooking the actual story with what is happening.

I can get it if people find it triggering and that is the cause for their dislike, but, while there IS misogyny in the film, the film itself is not misogynistic. Which I think is something that a lot of people just aren't getting.

Exactly, and it's what I agree with Emily Browning and her defense of the film because the film isn't supporting the misogyny the girls are facing, but addressing that is the issue and it's what drives the girls to do something about it and break free. Now there are definitely certain things to wonder, what actually happened in reality versus what was only happening in their psyches, and things to think about, but these sexism claims are rather over-exaggerating an issue that shouldn't be in the first place.

And ITA with you. Many people who are crying "anti-women" over this film either haven't seen it for themselves or they are incredibly biased in their views. Even some people who were skeptical before seeing it, came out saying that the bad reviews have been over-exaggerated.

I wish the film would get more praise because it is a fun movie to enjoy, and I did feel empowered by watching it -- I mean, you can't tell me that I cannot feel empowered by something I watch regardless (which some of these so-called radical feminists are telling others, which is bullshit, you are not me, kthx.) After I left the theater, aside from being overwhelmed by the ending, I wanted to kick some ass like the girls were doing in their action dreamscape sequences. Big guns, swords and fighting zombie robots and dragons? Hell yeah, sign me up for that!