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30 April 2011 @ 02:45 am
Further addendum on Castiel this season.  

Now I can't tell whether people are simply being reactionary based off of the episode itself or truly believe in the words they are writing out, but so far people have been completely overreacting the the revelation the newest episode gave us particularly with Castiel being in cahoots with Crowley. Most of these reactions isn't even new, since there has been plenty of fan speculation for a while now about Castiel being "evil" and "betraying" the Winchesters because of him not being entirely truthful and having ulterior motives all season long.

Let me make this absolutely clear for everyone:

CASTIEL. IS NOT. TURNING. EVIL.

It's almost like people are wanting him to become evil or something without looking at things rationally from his perspective and the circumstances he's been dealing with. Remember, the greatest harm can result from the best intentions. Good people can end up doing bad things, making questionable choices and decisions and doing morally ambiguous tasks for the greater good, especially when they're underneath a great deal of stress and pressure like Castiel has been all season. He's in deep desperation, he's had to make certain sacrifices, certain compromises due to the heavy weight he's carrying. Does this mean that Castiel is turning towards the "dark side" of things? Absolutely not.

I mean come on y'all, look at this face:



Does this look like the face of someone who is intentionally and legitimately enjoying doing horrible things? No. That's not what the definition of "evil" means, which people seem to be throwing around a lot lately as if justifying his secretive behavior. Castiel is questioning himself, he is afraid of what he is becoming, he is literally begging in the 6.20 preview to be stopped in heading in this direction. That is not a sign of someone who is turning darkside. That is a sign of someone struggling so desperately with the situation they are in, and don't want to be a part of anymore.

This is called being morally conflicted. Castiel is caught between a rock and a hard place and he's out of options, and has to take a risk which may be a necessary evil in order for things to be set right. And this is a realistic approach to many things that happen in life. Not everything is easy to attain, and sometimes you have to make certain compromises, even by bending the truth, to ensure that.

Never mind that the Winchesters have done questionable things, too. They've worked and compromised with demons to achieve their ends, yet people haven't referred to them being evil or have turned "dark side." What makes them the exception?

Here's the thing though: this is an interesting direction to be taking Castiel's arc because it shows a certain kind of development from where he was. He started out being an obedient soldier who begun having doubts and questioning his faith and his orders (S4) then after rebelling against Heaven and joining in Team Free Will in stopping Lucifer and the Apocalypse while learning about humanity (S5), and now he's on his own trying to maintain Heaven and end this civil war (S6). However with that, he's also learning the weight of this responsibility and that not everything is as simple as it seems, and because of it he's had to sacrifice certain things he believed in which is making him question, yet again, where his loyalties truly lie. Are they with Heaven, will he be able to make certain compromises to win at any and all costs, or is it with the Winchesters, that he simply cannot do this because he would jeopardize the only friends he has and deeply cares about? It's an entirely new ballpark for him and he's at loss at what to do, he's emotionally drained, completely wrecked and he doesn't want to lose anything. He can either lose the war, or lose the Winchesters. He sees no middle ground at this point, and unfortunately this is the price of war. War changes people, they start viewing things in a different light, from different perspectives than how they used to before, it makes them question situations that ultimately challenges their own morality.

And you know what? The fact that Castiel is actually questioning all of this shows his humanity. This is a good thing, and it pleases me that this is the direction they took with his character, particularly because he would have to deal with these kinds of hardships if he were to be the "sheriff of Heaven" and trying to maintain peace and equilibrium upstairs, esp for over two years.

My only concern is how the show is going to handle this. This is a potentially great character arc that can be royally screwed up in its execution, like many things have this season. Just please, please, for the love of God don't character assassinate our dear precious angel, Show. Otherwise I will never, ever forgive you.


Sorry for the long-winded rant. I just have lots of feelings regarding this, okay? Plus I'm worried, I'm biting my nails for these last few episodes of the season because it literally is the "make it or break it" for me with this show as a whole, and it all depends on this one character who I deeply am attached to.
 
 
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Cugamicugami on April 30th, 2011 10:21 am (UTC)
Word on everything here. I've ranted so much about all these for the last couple of weeks to a point that the phrase "Cas turning evil" became a trigger for me to go from happy to angry in a heartbeat.
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on April 30th, 2011 10:29 am (UTC)
Pretty much. It's like, why are people jumping to that conclusion? I've seen some people saying that they don't like Castiel anymore because of what he's done. But here's the thing, we don't know what he's done yet, and to what extent the things he's compromised to do. We'll soon find out of course, but I feel the vagueness of it is creating people to think of the worst case scenarios, and just seeing people thinking that he's going all darkside is kind of pushing that hot button for me.

Edited at 2011-04-30 10:30 am (UTC)
just a small town girl: [supernatural] if looks can killcarameltrap on April 30th, 2011 11:14 am (UTC)
I don't think he's evil or turning to the dark side. He's made some hard decisions and regrettable things but it's not like he did those things because he wants to or like it. He does them because he had to. I wish people can see that instead of of the 'Oh no! He's turning evil!' conclusion they get.

For that matter, the Winchesters are not saints themselves. Why don't people say the same?
Renée: Castiel. Searching for answers.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 04:47 am (UTC)
I wish people would see that, too. Because this is immediately jumping to conclusions without thinking rationally of his situation and what he's been through. We've seen him worn and torn and completely exhausted this whole season, making hard decisions that he doesn't want to make he ultimately has to because he has no choice. This is the price of war, people. I don't understand the speculations amongst fans that he's turned because that's simply uncharacteristic and just not true. It's oversimplifying the situation happening.

People end up getting tested during war times, seeing how far they'll be pushed to the limit with their own morality, and we're seeing that with Cas this season. It's heartbreaking to watch, to be honest. :(

For that matter, the Winchesters are not saints themselves. Why don't people say the same?

Because in their minds the Winchesters are the Golden Heroes Who Do Absolutely No Wrong. *rolls eyes* Seriously, that is how some people in this fandom think.
fate_incomplete: Cas pain insidefate_incomplete on April 30th, 2011 01:01 pm (UTC)
word on everything in this post.

I love the direction they have taken Cas too, particuly in these last few episodes when we have finally gotten to see some more of him. It has always been the idea of him being conflicted, and his doubts, and charge on through it all anyway attitude that has drawn me to him. He is a heartbraking character and they have found a new direction to take him that is fascinating and developing his character, and I love it. It might break my heart, but I adore it anyway, or maybe beacuse of it.

He made a choice to side with Dean against heaven, and that choice had consequences that he has been dealing with. Going from the obiedient soldier, to rebelling, to trying to right heaven has been a huge leap. He has found himself thrust into a position he has little experince with, and he has had to make tough choices. The fact that he is morally conflicted to me shows his humanity too.

Even the conflict between Cas and Dean doesn't really worry me as long as the writers don't take it too far. They have always travelled a rocky road, its part of what makes them so interesting, and I'm a complete sucker for angst. I just hope the writers don't screw up the potential they have here either.
Renée: Dean/Castiel. You and I.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 07:42 am (UTC)
It has always been the idea of him being conflicted, and his doubts, and charge on through it all anyway attitude that has drawn me to him. He is a heartbraking character and they have found a new direction to take him that is fascinating and developing his character, and I love it. It might break my heart, but I adore it anyway, or maybe beacuse of it.

I'm exactly the same. I find such characters more fascinating because nobody is straightforward good or evil. To have good characters do horrible things and struggle with the consequences of their actions, or alternatively having supposedly bad characters understanding and finding their own humanity, is more intriguing than anything else in stories. This is the kind of depth I am attracted to because it makes you identify with the characters more or at least empathize with with situation.

As heartbreaking as it is to see Castiel at this roadblock, completely and utterly desperate and on the brink of just falling apart, it makes me appreciate his storyline and arc throughout the show and everything he's had to deal with. I feel more connected to him than the Winchesters, at this point. Which is kind of just my thing, but you know. ;)

Even the conflict between Cas and Dean doesn't really worry me as long as the writers don't take it too far. They have always travelled a rocky road, its part of what makes them so interesting, and I'm a complete sucker for angst.

Definitely, although while I love my angst I love it when it's appropriately placed. This season has had them being at odds ends with each other for no reason. There's no explanation for them just being indifferent and I'm very confused and upset that they choose that route, and it's gone back and forth. In this last episode they seemed more buddy-buddy than they have all season, which is strange. This is the fault of the writers, imo.

Now this will definitely have them being angsty with each other, which again with the heartache, but it'll be necessary this time.
Tinka: Casgwaevalarin on April 30th, 2011 01:13 pm (UTC)
THIS! So much! Thank you.
Renée: Castiel. BAMF.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 06:08 am (UTC)
I just had to get it out of my system. I know I probably mentioned my opinion on this before but, after last night's episode, I couldn't handle all the criticism, accusations and hatred his character has been getting (nearly equal with the Dean/Cas fanservice hate going around, but whatever.)
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Filomena: give em whiplashaubade_saudade on April 30th, 2011 01:42 pm (UTC)
ikr? it's like OMG He's with Crowley! He's evil!!!

like the boys didn't make friends with demons every once in a while, well, not friends but convenient fuck-buddys/partners in crime.


THIS IS NOT EVIL CAS. THIS IS WARTIME CAS. THERE IS A FUCKING DIFFERENCE PEOPLE.

PUT ON YR BIG GIRL PANTS AND LEARN TO LIVE WITH MORAL COMPLEXITY. CHUCKDAMN.

Renée: Castiel. Show some respect.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 06:06 am (UTC)
THIS IS NOT EVIL CAS. THIS IS WARTIME CAS. THERE IS A FUCKING DIFFERENCE PEOPLE.

Fucking word, for real.

Castiel isn't just a soldier, he's practically a general military officer, and like anyone in war he has to make difficult decisions and take risks and place aside his hesitation and revulsion and challenge his own morality because that is what being in war does to people. Especially when you're backed up against the wall running out of options, like they described it in a recent interview about where his storyline has been taking him. The show never describes Castiel is "going dark" but rather being challenged in a way he never was before, and that's a fascinating direction to take for any character really. It adds new layers and depths and complexities.

I just hope that the show handles it with respect rather than character assassinate him.
Trobadora: Castiel - black wingstrobadora on April 30th, 2011 01:49 pm (UTC)
I hope you don't mind a stranger butting in, but - OMG thank you so much for this post! I've been getting more and more frustrated with the whole evil!Cas thing. Seriously, WTF?! He's doing regrettable things, he's conflicted about them, and he tries - I see nothing even remotely evil in there. And why is it acceptable if Sam and Dean decide to work with/for Crowley for various reasons both in season 5 and 6, but when Cas does it it's a sign of EEEEEVIL? *headdesk*

I'm completely with you on hoping the show handles it well. *wibbles*

Besides, Castiel was never a saintly character to begin with. Add the pressure of his current situation, and this isn't exactly coming out of nowhere. Are people confusing fluffy!Cas from fanfic with show!Cas or what?
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 07:21 am (UTC)
Oh, I don't mind at all. :) More input is greatly accepted and appreciated.

I see nothing even remotely evil in there. And why is it acceptable if Sam and Dean decide to work with/for Crowley for various reasons both in season 5 and 6, but when Cas does it it's a sign of EEEEEVIL? *headdesk*

I know, it's completely backwards. :/ Perhaps it might be from how little we know of what is truly happening, however there's no need for context when we can plainly see that Castiel is struggling with everything going on with this war and the compromises he's had to make. We don't even have to know what those compromises are, but he's visibly (and from the promo, verbally) conflicted with it and that should say something, shouldn't it?

Besides, Castiel was never a saintly character to begin with. Add the pressure of his current situation, and this isn't exactly coming out of nowhere. Are people confusing fluffy!Cas from fanfic with show!Cas or what?

I do think people have been confusing the two, yes.

Because you're absolutely right, he's never been completely innocent or saintly from the beginning. He blindly followed orders but began to question them and bending the rules, and even after rebelling he still held a certain mindset that he couldn't detach himself from via his time in Heaven (I generally believe angels have a different way of thinking than humans do; Castiel thinks about the bigger picture and the long-term affects, whereas Dean and Sam think about the smaller things, like caring for the two orphaned boys) -- here, it's a completely new territory for him to be dealing with. All this time, his own understanding of morality has always been challenged and he's learning how to handle situations on his own.

So yeah, it's perfectly understandable given his character history that he's been going down in this direction and what he's been dealing with. It just adds more to how tragic his character arc is. :(
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goldenusagigoldenusagi on April 30th, 2011 03:06 pm (UTC)
Good people can end up doing bad things, making questionable choices and decisions and doing morally ambiguous tasks for the greater good

Yeah, like drinking demon blood and releasing Lucifer.

I still wonder exactly what Castiel had DONE. Teaming up Crowley doesn't make him evil, WE ALREADY DID THAT IN SEASON 5. I just wonder about how the soul thing works, and I hope it doesn't retcon the mythology to me. But I couldn't get excited over evil Cas, because it just doesn't seem in character to me.
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 06:19 am (UTC)
But I couldn't get excited over evil Cas, because it just doesn't seem in character to me.

It certainly isn't in-character for him to become a darker version. Heartbreaking as it is, I prefer seeing him struggle with his own morality and be challenged in this way because this is completely new territory for him with holding things together in this war, but realizing he cannot do that without making certain sacrifices and hard decisions, which have slowly been eating away at him. I think that is more in-character at watching him crumble with drastic desperation rather than turning "darkside" as everyone is suspecting he is/will.

I'm waiting in anticipation to learn more about what he's been doing, how huge this secret he's been keeping from them, and how this will change things between himself and the Winchesters.
philstar22: Supernatural: Dean/Cas worth dying forphilstar22 on April 30th, 2011 03:31 pm (UTC)
Well, it really bug me that they are having Cas go in this direction at all, or at least taking it this far. But I'm willing to go with it as long as he isn't evil or doesn't end up dead.

I agree that the next few episodes are "make it or break it". I haven't hated this season, but last night's episode bugged me. First, you kill off two more female characters. Second, you give us this interesting female villain for only a few episodes and then kill her off before even the end of the season.
philstar22philstar22 on April 30th, 2011 03:34 pm (UTC)
I guess some of my problems stem from coming from a religious background. On the one hand, I don't equate the SPN angels with real life angels (or I couldn't ship Dean/Cas). But at the same time, Cas is the only completely good angel we have (or character really), and it was nice to have at least someone who was good. Because not every single person in the world is as grey/conflicted as everyone else is on SPN, so it was nice to have Cas as something different.
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meanderingeffervescent on April 30th, 2011 04:10 pm (UTC)
I actually think it would be completely and utterly fascinating and so much more interesting than anything they've done with his character (other than create ~tension~ with him and Dean) if he turned evil. :D that's just me, though.
Renée: Castiel. Searching for answers.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 05:57 am (UTC)
I find being conflicted and heading down a morally gray path is much more intriguing and fascinating as a whole because it adds complexity and depth to his character if he has these kinds of struggles with his own morality and where he stands. If he simply just went "evil" for the sake of things that would be total character assassination, as far as I'm concerned. Because that is simply not who Cas is.

Then again, I'm highly protective of him and find that even with such an arc he can still remain the angel we've always known him, just faced with making hard decisions for himself in such an extraordinary circumstance. Since Castiel is essentially finding his own humanity despite his angelic nature, it's very interesting seeing how things will turn out.

Edited at 2011-05-01 05:58 am (UTC)
twisting_vine_x: Castiel - Injuredtwisting_vine_x on April 30th, 2011 04:44 pm (UTC)
I'm biting my nails for these last few episodes of the season because it literally is the "make it or break it" for me with this show as a whole, and it all depends on this one character who I deeply am attached to.

Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 05:08 am (UTC)
♥ ♥ ♥

It's true, though. I find myself distancing myself from this show more and more as this season has progressed, to be honest. Castiel is the only attachment I have left to really keep me going. If they severely destroy his character, or take him out of the equation, then that's it for me.
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Trinatrinaweena on April 30th, 2011 06:12 pm (UTC)
i completely agree with what your saying, and yees logically his motivations make sense and if we were writing the show i would be like yay this is awesome. But like i said last week, i can just so see the show fucking this up royally. Because cas might not be evil but i fee like thats how the winchesters will percieve it and turn on him really fast. i would like it if they didnt though
Renée: Dean/Castiel. Between us.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 05:06 am (UTC)
Because cas might not be evil but i fee like thats how the winchesters will percieve it and turn on him really fast. i would like it if they didnt though

Which again, would be entirely hypocritical of them considering everything they had to do when desperate and underneath certain pressures. Having them feeling upset I can understand, but to completely turn their backs on Castiel? That would make the Winchesters entirely unlikeable, I'm not even joking. I'm sorry, but given everything Cas has been going through you feel more sorry for him than with the brothers being so self-absorbed with their own issues. That's just how I've been feeling lately. Cas deserves some support than none and at this point he's on the edge, without the Winchesters backing him up or even being there for him I feel like he might do something he'll really regret. :(
Dom sits downmercury973 on April 30th, 2011 06:25 pm (UTC)
Can't say it any better my dear. Cas is good. I just really hope they don't screw it up. Last night's episode got me mad. *clutches Cas to my heart*
Renée: Dean/Castiel. Bittersweet.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 05:00 am (UTC)
Castiel is a good angel having to make hard (even regrettable) decisions in times of war, which we can't even begin to imagine the kind of magnitude the whole war itself is let alone on his shoulders. These decisions are a huge weight for him, and it's painfully clear how he truly regrets these regrettable things. I sincerely hope the show doesn't paint him to be the bad one when the Winchesters have done equally as horrible things in the past. If anything, they should be at least somewhat understanding of the position Castiel is in right now.

Because trust me, if they do I'll be even more upset and pissed off because, as fascinating as this direction is, it would be entirely hypocritical of them to even not consider what he's been going through. :/
Patent Counsel for Adrian Veidt and Tony Stark: SPN Castiel Fear Notakemi42 on April 30th, 2011 07:21 pm (UTC)
Thanks for posting. I missed Mommy Dearest last night and I just caught it this morning. Cas is not evil. In the trailer for 6X20 he says "Am I doing the right thing?" And you're right. Just look at his face. :)
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 05:02 am (UTC)
The fact he's questioning these regrettable things he's ultimately had to do for the greater good means something, and I just want them to do his storyline justice and not flake out or not have some sort of satisfactory payoff that is in-character for his entire arc.
Kevin Jonesmulder200 on April 30th, 2011 07:58 pm (UTC)
Like you, I find myself mystified by people thinking Castiel is evil. WTF?!

Anyway, it's not like Castiel is the only one who has made questionable choices in the name of good before.
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 04:53 am (UTC)
It boggles my mind how people came to this conclusion, even prior to this episode really. It's like, have you not been watching Castiel all season long? Are you not familiar with his character at all throughout the show? O_o
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexy: SPN- Dean Cas Drawinglove_jackianto on May 1st, 2011 01:45 pm (UTC)
'CASTIEL. IS NOT. TURNING. EVIL.'
WORD! Did the people who think he's turning evil not only fast-forward through ALL his episodes but also completely miss Sam I'm-working-with-Ruby storyline.

That being said if the writers screw this up there will be blood, blood I tell you.
Renée: Castiel. Whumped :(rogueslayer452 on May 1st, 2011 02:16 pm (UTC)
Seriously. It's not like the Winchesters are saints in everything they've done or compromised before either, so acting like Castiel is going dark is completely ignoring everything else. It makes no sense. Now, I understand the apprehensiveness due to this season being a total clusterfuck of a mess, but there are people legitimately wanting evil!Castiel and that's just....so not right. At least for me, since I cannot fathom seeing his character turning in that direction. Again, entering that morally gray area is not equivalent to going "darkside" at all.

Oh trust me, I'm with you on there being blood.
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