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07 May 2011 @ 05:36 pm
Insomnia just isn't good with an overworking fangirl brain, bbs.  
While I'm still processing and digesting everything from last night, gathering my emotions to make a coherent review, there is something that has been nagging at me for a while regarding Supernatural as presented loud and clear from last night. And I think this sums up my feelings on the situation very nicely:




This has been my issue with Supernatural for a while now, is that there's too much lipservice and not much showing about how the two main characters are learning and growing from their experiences. We can chalk it up saying that they have their own personal issues, but after six seasons you'd think it'd get through their thick skulls and understand where certain characters are coming from instead of being selfish and self-righteous about everything when they've done just about as bad or worse. Surely there's emotion from all sides but the show fails at presenting a clear way of showing that, even after all the things the Winchesters have gone through, what they've witnessed and experienced firsthand, they cannot see outside their own bubble and that's the infuriating part especially after watching last night's episode and seeing the hurt and dismay Castiel was going through, and how they failed at trying to understand his side.

Here in this clip, Lee Adama is actually defending Gaius Baltar when he doesn't remotely like him at all. This is what Lee Adama believes in his heart, and we've seen Lee grow over the course of the series because of this, what he's learned and what he's come to believe despite it all. Pretty much all the characters have gone through a powerful transformation at some point during the series. And guys, Battlestar Galactica had only four seasons. Supernatural has six and we're still dealing with the self-centered immaturity and recycled nonsense the Winchesters deal with. Does that seem right to you?

Now I'm not saying that Supernatural needs to be making epic speeches every episode (although that would be pretty awesome...) they really need to start upping their game at having characters learn something and actually keeping that in their minds for future reference. Don't have them say one thing, then do the opposite in the next episode. Actually giving them character development than just repeating the same shit over and over and never getting anywhere, even if they are totally flawed characters with many issues. Otherwise that's just piss-poor laziness of the writing. :/

Just, yeah. There are many things that irritate me about the show, however that is the major one that brought up my reaction from last night and it just makes no sense how they cannot see this flaw and at least try to eradicate it.


Oh and yes, that is who you think it is in the clip.
 
 
Current Mood: apatheticapathetic
 
 
 
fate_incomplete: Cas parkbench profile b/wfate_incomplete on May 8th, 2011 12:54 am (UTC)
I loved this speech by Lee so hard. And Romo Lampkin still remains my favourite Mark Sheppard character, he kicked ass in this.

I loved 6.20, though I can understand your frustration with the Winchester's not evolving and learning from their own mistakes. They do tend to get up on their high horse and ride rough shod over anyone who isn't named Sam or Dean with their self righteous retoric.

I sort of think that Dean did stick by Cas in the episode though (assuming they aren't on opposite sides when we see them next) but I'm happy to disagree on that. I am a bit of an eternal optimist when it comes to my favourite characters, so I'm still holding out hope Dean will help Cas somehow.
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 01:15 am (UTC)
I sort of think that Dean did stick by Cas in the episode though (assuming they aren't on opposite sides when we see them next) but I'm happy to disagree on that. I am a bit of an eternal optimist when it comes to my favourite characters, so I'm still holding out hope Dean will help Cas somehow.

He did, but it would have been more believable with the impact of everything had we've been shown the supportive attitude from Dean the entire season. Because we've never seen that, Dean has been treating Castiel like shit nearly this whole time and every time Castiel tries to mention his hardships with this war, he just merely dismisses it. So I could get behind the impact more had there been something prior for us to feel bad about Dean feeling a little betrayed by Castiel at this point.

But the reality is, there was nothing there to feel sorry for Dean when he's been an inconsiderate jackass this whole time.

I want to be optimistic that their relationship will be repaired and patched up soon, but it would rely on trust with the writers however I don't trust them aside from Ben Edlund (who rocked this episode out, even if many things didn't match up to the rest of the season at all.) I just wished the show would acknowledge their mistakes because they get called out on it many times, however they just hand-wave it and never address it again. That's lazy writing, imo.
kaiyotekaiyote on May 8th, 2011 04:17 am (UTC)
Word to everything you said. (tbh I don't think we'll ever see any kind of character growth or anything on the show though. :\ It's just way too addicted to the manpain and the angst and the ~co-dependency~ to ever let that happen. At least imo.)

Also that clip? So depressing to watch after last nights episode. :(
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 06:04 am (UTC)
It's disappointing and infuriating because many other shows deal with character angst too, but they manage to let characters grow while still making (new) mistakes and learning from them too. It's just this show that fails on multiple levels in actually progressing to that stage. I've come to the point where I don't care about the Winchesters and their petty issues. It's just repeated over and over again while other character developments (ex. Castiel's, for example) are left unacknowledged by them.

I mean, I think with this season we only had the Bobby-centric episode and this Castiel-centric episode which focused on them, not the Winchesters. More of that, less focus on the Winchesters, or at least integrate it all together as they should be.

Also that clip? So depressing to watch after last nights episode. :(

I know. :( I had thought about that speech after the episode aired last night and when I went to watch it I started crying all over again. Because it's so true to how the boys have been treating Castiel all season. But then again, most of BSG is like that because they call out many things, and you know what? Characters grow from it. I wish SPN was the same.

Then again, BSG is superb television, so....
(no subject) - kaiyote on May 8th, 2011 10:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Tinka: Casgwaevalarin on May 8th, 2011 04:21 am (UTC)
Wow, I didn't realise how fitting that speech was for this weeks episode until just now. I wish we could bring Lee over and have him deliver a similar one to Dean.

It may be lazy writing, but mainly I have accepted the Winchester boys' unwilingness (or inability) to learn, and once, just once see things from a different perspective, as an integral part of their flawed characters. As part of the tragic of it all, because they go through that over and over, and still make the same mistakes, because they just can't see.
The only real problem I have with this is that I'm afraid I'm starting to dislike them for it. And that's something that shouldn't happen with the main characters of a show.
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 05:57 am (UTC)
I've already been disliking them most of this season, but it was this particular episode that really cemented that dislike further because they just can't think outside of their own feelings and not even attempt to understand why Castiel was doing what he was doing. That pissed me off to no end. Like honestly Dean and Sam, like you have room to talk. :/

After the episode aired, I kept thinking about this clip and it just rings so painfully true. I wished this show would acknowledge these faults and flaws of all the characters in a brave manner.
(no subject) - gwaevalarin on May 8th, 2011 06:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
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Kevin Jonesmulder200 on May 8th, 2011 06:16 am (UTC)
Good minds think alike.

It's so funny because I was just thinking to myself how annoying it that the boys still have this black and white morality mindset when dealing when on shows like Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel, the main characters start out as black and white and then grow and change and realize that the world is many shades of gray. Nothing is ever simple and clear cut as it seems.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that the Winchesters will never learn this lesson which is more the pity. More the pity.
Renée: Sucker Punch. Open your mind.rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 08:03 am (UTC)
It really is a pity, and even more outrageous because the show has made statements about the Winchesters being self-absorbed and only thinking about themselves rather than considering others or certain situations....and yet, nothing is done to prove that they have learned their lessons or mention anything like that to them again. It's like, what's the point then? Why continue to bring something like that up when it's pointless? Like when Bobby called them out in "Weekend At Bobby's", and when Rachel called them out, but they still cannot see passed their own selfish needs.

They really do have a simplistic mindset, despite what they've personally dealt with firsthand. You'd think that would shift and make them evolve, but nope. It hasn't, and after six season they probably never will. It truly is a damn shame because I would have more respect for the show if they addressed these issues more and dealt with them properly.
She that is Me: BB - Shut up! I'm dying!sweetsyren on May 8th, 2011 08:35 am (UTC)
*applauds*

Yes. All of this.

they cannot see outside their own bubble and that's the infuriating part especially after watching last night's episode and seeing the hurt and dismay Castiel was going through, and how they failed at trying to understand his side.

As much as I love them and I do, this is precisely my issue with them. It's all self-centred anger and hurt and "I don't want to hear it! Just do as I say!" ... Especially from Dean.

I love you dor using this clip. Now i'm going to go back and get into BSG again because it was so awesome.

Also? Does that seem right to you? Nice firefly reference.
Renée: Six/Gaius. Your destiny awaits.rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 11:54 am (UTC)
As much as I love them and I do, this is precisely my issue with them. It's all self-centred anger and hurt and "I don't want to hear it! Just do as I say!" ... Especially from Dean.

I expected more understanding from Dean, however both he and Sam (and shockingly Bobby, as well) shunned Castiel without even hearing his side of the story. I just don't understand why. Granted I'm sure there's hurt from learning the truth, but did they have to go to such extremes? Everything from the holy ring of fire to the angel banishing sigils and even threatening to kill him was a complete overreaction, and I just don't get it.

I wish they would listen for once instead of going off the deep end.

I hate this aspect about them, and being in the sixth season they should know better. Emotions can get the better of them and they overreact, however they should understand Castiel's situation because they have been there before. They have been to that utterly desperate place and did reckless things when they thought it was the only option. I just, gah. :( This is their flaw that they have, but I just can't accept that as an excuse anymore. Because they are grown men, they shouldn't be playing these games anymore.

I love you dor using this clip. Now i'm going to go back and get into BSG again because it was so awesome.

I had to, and besides with BSG they do post-apocalyptic angst right, and these moments, these moments and speeches showing character development, of characters questioning their morality in times of war...this is something I return to when things on Supernatural piss me off.

Also? Does that seem right to you? Nice firefly reference.

Hee. Not gonna lie, when I was writing that I totally thought it in Jubal Early's voice. ;)
(no subject) - sweetsyren on May 8th, 2011 12:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 12:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
kaiyote: VMARS ▪ my name is cassidykaiyote on May 8th, 2011 10:44 am (UTC)
OHMYGOD. I THINK I AM GOING TO CRY RIGHT NOW. BECAUSE I KEEP WATCHING THAT CLIP AND I'M LIKE... REWRITING IT SO THE WORDS FIT WHAT CAS IS GOING THROUGH AND I GOT TO THE "BLANKET PARDON" PART IN IT... AND THEN I DECIDED TO REWATCH THE SCENE IN 6X16 WHERE DEAN SAYS THAT FAMILY SHOULD FORGIVE EACH OTHER. AND YOU KNOW WHAT?

DEAN FUCKING SAYS BLANKET APOLOGY FOR ALL THE CRAP THAT ANYBODY'S DONE ALL AROUND AND WOW. WOW. THAT'S FUCKING AWESOME FOR ALL OF YOU BUT I THOUGHT CAS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR FUCKING FAMILY TOO, SO WHY NOT HIM? WHY NOT HIM? SERIOUSLY. WHY IS WHAT CAS DONE SO BAD AND WRONG THAT HE DOESN'T DESERVE TO BE FORGIVEN OR LISTENED TO? WHY IS WHAT HE'S OFFERED DEATH UNLESS HE STOPS? WHY?

THIS ISN'T FAIR. *SOBS*

I AM SERIOUSLY CRYING RIGHT NOW.
Renée: Castiel. Whumped :(rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 11:42 am (UTC)
OH MY GOD. NOW I'M CRYING.

SERIOUSLY. UNLESS THIS IS PURPOSEFULLY DONE TO SHOW HOW IMPULSIVELY STUPID THE WINCHESTERS ARE WITH THEIR RASH ACCUSATIONS AND SHUNNING OUT THOSE WHO THEY DON'T AGREE WITH, HOW COULD DEAN FORGET ALL OF THAT IF HE CONSIDERED CASTIEL NOT JUST A FRIEND BUT PART OF THE FAMILY? HE DIDN'T EVEN LISTEN TO CAS. JUST BANISHED HIM. JUST, WHAT? D: CASTIEL DOESN'T DESERVE THIS. HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING REMOTELY SO HORRIBLE FOR THEM TO BANISH HIM AND ACT THE WAY THEY DID, WITH THE WARDING SIGILS AND WHATNOT. AND DEAN'S WORDS TO HIM AT THE END, JUST, GODDAMMIT. D: D: D:

YOU'RE RIGHT, IT REALLY TRULY ISN'T FAIR AND I HOPE SOMEONE CALLS THEM OUT ON IT, OTHERWISE.... :(

AND THIS IS WHY I CHOOSE THAT SPEECH SPECIFICALLY. IT'S SO REAL TO WHAT CASTIEL IS GOING THROUGH AND HOW HYPOCRITICAL THE WINCHESTERS ARE BEING. I JUST, YEAH.
(no subject) - kaiyote on May 8th, 2011 12:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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Galadriel.: BSG ✽ Frakkin' angel!sixphanel on May 8th, 2011 11:04 am (UTC)
Gah, that speech... :_)
Renée: Six. Warrior of God.rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 11:36 am (UTC)
I love this speech. Granted I love all the speeches made on BSG since they're all so amazing, but something about Lee giving this speech at Baltar's trial really made an impact on me when I first watched it.
just a small town girl: [supernatural] if looks can killcarameltrap on May 8th, 2011 11:40 am (UTC)
It's great when a character starts out flawed as it means the character will learn and developed into someone better along the way. S6 had been so incredibly frustrating.

After six seasons, I would have expected the Winchesters to be better than who they first were. I like that they have problems but not when they're always in the same old, same old. It doesn't endear me to them and makes it so incredibly difficult to just simply overlook their flaws and love them just because they're Sam and Dean. I don't want to see them remain the same as they were from past seasons. I want to see them grow and learn, become better persons instead of these self-centered, self-entitled and self-righteous dicks who can't see beyond themselves and their little world.

The writers are also at fault for the Winchesters' inconsistent behaviour.

This ended up being a tl;dr rant. I'm sorry. TAT
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 12:14 pm (UTC)
I don't mind tl;dr replies, so don't worry bb. ;)

It really has gotten old, their same-old routine of caring only about themselves and their little world instead of looking at the bigger picture of how everything is connected. Even last season, they didn't seem to take the apocalypse seriously until the very end. It just has gotten to the point where it's tiring, where we just don't care about their troubles when there are bigger things happening around them.

I love flawed characters, but remaining flawed and not learning from their mistakes and growing from their experiences is just irritating and makes me unsympathetic towards them. They've become unbearable and unlikeable at this point in the series, and it's just enough already. :|
(no subject) - carameltrap on May 8th, 2011 12:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 01:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
kaiyote: DRWHO ▪ fuck yeah elevenkaiyote on May 8th, 2011 12:13 pm (UTC)
DEAR DEAN & SAM & BOBBY,
DID CASTIEL LIE TO YOU? SURE. HE DID. HE KEPT SECRETS. BUT DID HE EVER INTENTIONALLY HURT ANY OF YOU? DID HE EVER MEAN TO? NO.

I MEAN, IT WAS AN IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION. WHEN RAPHAEL TOLD HIM HE HAD A DAY TO SUBMIT TO HIM AND LET THE APOCALYPSE HAPPEN OR DIE, WHAT COULD HE POSSIBLY DO? WHAT COULD ANYONE HAVE DONE? I MEAN, ASK YOURSELF. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE? WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

IF HE HAD REFUSED CROWLEY'S OFFER, RAPHAEL WOULD'VE ENDED UP KILLING HIM AND ANY OF HIS SUPPORTERS AND THE APOCALYPSE PROBABLY WOULD'VE HAPPENED RIGHT THEN AND THERE.

SO IS HE WORKING WITH A DEMON? SURE.

BUT SO HAVE ALL OF YOU.

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIM AND YOU?

DEAN, YOU EVEN GAVE A BLANKET APOLOGY FOR EVERYTHING YOU'VE ALL DONE TO EACH OTHER. YOU ALL FORGAVE EACH OTHER. NO QUESTIONS ASKED. BECAUSE YOU'RE FAMILY AND THAT'S WHAT FAMILY DOES: FORGIVES EACH OTHER.

BUT NOT CASTIEL. NO. NOT CASTIEL. NO. HE DOESN'T DESERVE TO BE FORGIVEN. HE DOESN'T DESERVE TO BE FORGIVEN BECAUSE, WELL, BECAUSE HE DIDN'T MAKE THE CHOICE YOU WANTED HIM TO. BECAUSE HE DIDN'T COME TO YOU FOR HELP... BECAUSE HE WANTED TO PROTECT YOU... BECAUSE HE THOUGHT HE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION. AND SO HE DESERVES TO BE TRAPPED AND INTERROGATED AND THREATENED BECAUSE HE'S FAMILY BUT HIS MISTAKES ARE JUST "TOO" TERRIBLE.

BUT THAT'S NOT FAMILY. THAT'S NOT FAMILY. THAT'S NOT EVEN FRIENDS. NOT TO ME. NOT TO ME.
Renée: Dean/Castiel. Bittersweet.rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 12:23 pm (UTC)
I THINK ILU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW, BB.
SO MUCH THAT YOU GET THE ADMIRAL APPLAUDING YOU:



AND A STANDING OVATION:



SERIOUSLY AND I WILL SAY THIS MUCH: THIS NEEDS TO BE POSTED AND REPOSTED EVERYWHERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE BECAUSE THIS IS JUST GLORIOUS AND NAYSAYERS CAN STFU BECAUSE THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FUCKING TRUE. LEE'S SPEECH + YOU HAVING TO REWRITE IT SO IT FITS WITH THE CASTIEL SITUATION JUST....FITS SO PERFECTLY, PAINFULLY PERFECTLY.

I AM CRYING RIGHT NOW READING IT. LEGIT TEARS.
Re: I THINK ILU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW, BB. - kaiyote on May 8th, 2011 12:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: I THINK ILU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW, BB. - rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 12:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Shonaille: Dean and Castiel 4x03 Moment of Compassikalikahuntress on May 8th, 2011 03:52 pm (UTC)
Wow I hate how painfully predictable this show has gotten. Meh, I was actually kind of digging the last couple of eps but this has really turned me off. Again. The reason why Dean and the others never grow is that the writers don't know how to write anything beyond what they have. They don't have what it takes to bring these characters to new heights and dynamic characterization and that is really sad.
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 11:25 pm (UTC)
I have a feeling that had Edlund wrote the majority of this season things would have been different, things would have made sense continuity-wise and the emotional punch and feelings of betrayal would have been justified. Since he seems to understand the character interactions better than Gamble or any other writer on this show anymore, and even when it seems like he was trying to fix what this season failed at doing, only it just doesn't add up.

I mean as predictable as the Winchesters have become from their simplistic mindset and stupidity, this episode was pretty amazing and it showed the kind of conflict Castiel was going through and it just was so heartbreaking. I never felt so emotionally connected to a character like I have watching this episode....and it just makes me more angry at the Winchesters for only thinking about themselves instead of others for once.
(no subject) - kalikahuntress on May 8th, 2011 11:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
cottoncandy86cottoncandy86 on May 8th, 2011 08:39 pm (UTC)
I found it interesting because I thought 'oh no he's gonna tell them about Fate and killing Rachel and the titantic AU and they'll be so upset'. Ironically those things would be semi in their right to be upset and or shocked about but he never even got to that. I thought we would have a full on confession. So it just shows what idiots they are that they got so upset (over the least shocking part of his story at that) and they didn't even know the half of it. If they overreacted to just him lying about Crowley, they probably would have just knifed him right there over all that.. Since overreaction and whining is their speciality. Stupid Winchesters.

I still love you Cas bb. You can use my soul if you want. Forget the winchesters.
Renée: BSG. Natalie is not pleased.rogueslayer452 on May 8th, 2011 11:31 pm (UTC)
Overreaction and whining are definitely their specialty, and it's no longer cute or acceptable with them. It's one thing to show how flawed they are, it's another to have them repeat the same shit over and over without them understanding these flaws and trying to overcome it. They are grown men, have them act like it, ffs. :|