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12 March 2012 @ 09:06 am
Something has been bothering me lately....  

Doesn't it bother anyone else that the brothers end up killing the human host the demon is possessing?

This happens more often in the last few seasons, with the introduction to the knife and now with the concept of burning the human bones that once belonged to the demon (since demons were once human too.) Yes, before exorcisms were the only source of getting rid of a demon from a living human body but that was only to send the demons back to Hell, while afterwards discovering other methods that were highly more effective on killing the demon once and for all. However all those methods (aside from Sam using his now ex-demon psychic powers) end up killing the human host also. This is where I am finding it rather problematic.

What about the innocent people they end up killing in the process? What about the families they left behind, wondering about their loved ones? It's a wonder why more people don't come after the Winchesters and other hunters for revenge on those they left behind by their own hand.....

Essentially, my problem with this representation is that the show isn't addressing this issue often enough, and I don't mean they should bring this up every single episode in detail, but rather show the ramifications of their actions whenever they are confronted by having to kill hoards of demons ruthlessly with either the knife, the bone burning or otherwise. It's done so frivolously that it's almost like they have forgotten that there are innocent people involved every time they are confronted by demons. The show has completely forgotten about the human aspect of demon possession. Demons have become personified rather than the incorporeal beings they are, the human face they wear become the threat instead of the black smoke that has assaulted a completely innocent human being. Of course this could make it ~easier~ for the Winchesters, and other hunters as well, to kill and destroy the demons if they focus on the physical form rather than their true forms. But that doesn't excuse it or make it right.

(Note: This can be extended to the humans angels possess as well, although they seem to follow a different code of conduct than with demon possessions; angels can only take a human host of the proper bloodline with willing consent from the human themselves, thereby they understand to an extent what is expected of this "holy possession", whereas with demons they just possess anyone, anywhere, anytime, regardless if the bodies are alive or dead)

Then again, this is Supernatural we're talking about. With the endless list of things they have failed to acknowledge or have just simply forgotten in terms of consistency of the writing and the canon of their own mythology, I hardly expect them to acknowledge any of this. -__-


I kinda also want to address the whole "anything that isn't human deserves to be killed" aspect of the show, which is equally problematic. Never mind how the Winchesters, more often than not, tend to play God in deciding who lives or dies, and in deciding who is "more human" or not. Just, ugh. That is another rant for another time though. :/
 
 
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Shonaillekalikahuntress on March 12th, 2012 05:19 pm (UTC)
The writers are so lazy they probably think bringing it up once is enough. I'm kind of pissed that this show doesn't have the boys always trying to exorcise the demons/spirits first and using the knife/bone burning/etc... as a last resort.
The Winchesters have become thoughtless murderers where the people they kill or who die for them are nothing more than collateral damage.

I have hated the Winchester belief in killing all supernatural beings when they themselves aren't actually human, especially Sam.
Renée: Castiel. Sigil of blood.rogueslayer452 on March 13th, 2012 07:22 am (UTC)
The Winchesters have become thoughtless murderers where the people they kill or who die for them are nothing more than collateral damage.

I know, right? I'm just thinking of everyone that has died for them, who are so unfortunate to get the crappy ends of the deal, and yet are still treated like collateral damage, by not just the characters/the show but by other fans too. Like Adam, for instance, their half-brother, I've seen complaints at how Adam wasn't a "true" Winchester (meaning full-blood) therefore he doesn't matter. It's like, really? Is that how you really feel?

It's pure example on how this viewpoint is reflected on the show, and it's very disturbing and insulting on many levels.

I have hated the Winchester belief in killing all supernatural beings when they themselves aren't actually human, especially Sam.

My thoughts exactly. I can't begin to tell you how much I just hate that the Winchesters get a free pass because they are "the stars" of the show while everyone else around them is treated like shit. It's like, you'd think they would be more understanding in that sense, but hey, if it's not Winchester-related they really don't care. -___-
Tinka: Casgwaevalarin on March 12th, 2012 05:54 pm (UTC)
Both, killing the possessed human host without a second thought and their 'anything that isn't human deserves to be killed' attitude are a big part of why I find myself starting to seriously dislike the Winchester boys against my will. (The other, even bigger part is their treatment of Castiel. And Adam, and other characters who deserved better but had the unfortunate fate of not being important enough or something.)

I hate it. I used to love and care about these characters so much, but I can only take what the show is giving me, and they have turned them, and Dean in particular, into self-righteous, hypocritical assholes. And for what? Stupid jokes about unicorns and dicks?
Renée: Santana. No me gusta.rogueslayer452 on March 13th, 2012 06:03 am (UTC)
I hate it. I used to love and care about these characters so much, but I can only take what the show is giving me, and they have turned them, and Dean in particular, into self-righteous, hypocritical assholes. And for what? Stupid jokes about unicorns and dicks?

Pretty much, yeah.

It's upsetting because I don't think they intentionally meant to do that, otherwise there would have been more acknowledgment on their end on why they made them into hypocritical assholes. But the problem stems from many people coddling them and woobifying their experiences, putting them on a pedestal when really, why should we? What makes the Winchesters more important than any other being out there? Why should they be excused from such behavior and others be condemned for doing the same thing, for the same exact reasons they do (i.e. saving the world, preventing another apocalypse, etc)? And they don't remain consistent in that aspect either.

This is just one of the many issues this show has had. And the problems have gotten more problematic as the show continues on, more noticeably in S6 and S7 than any other season, tbh.
noybusiness: JensenCloseupnoybusiness on March 13th, 2012 12:16 am (UTC)
Color me bothered.

They agonized over it in the first two seasons, then it devolved. (Actually, you can say that about a lot of things on the show, including the attitude towards non-humans possibly being worth saving) Around the same time that demons went from being super-hard to kill to being killable in droves; to use gamer language, they went from mini-bosses to mooks.

And don't get me started on how the show's incorporation of Greek etc. mythology has (a) been bastardized into barely recognizable form and (b) doesn't mesh at all well with the original urban legend premise of the show.

Edited at 2012-03-13 12:18 am (UTC)
Renée: Kahlan. HBIC.rogueslayer452 on March 13th, 2012 04:39 am (UTC)
Not only that, but weren't demons very scarce in the beginning? It's like they went from incredibly hard to find let alone kill to being pretty much everywhere all the time and killing them is super easy. I mean, Sam and Dean didn't even understand the concept of demon possession until Bobby explained it to them at the end of S1. It's like they thought the demons were physical form, until being notified otherwise, and they went to save the people the demons were hurting/possessing...and nowadays they have reverted to just seeing the demons are physical forms again, not even caring about the person at all. :/

And don't get me started on how the show's incorporation of Greek etc. mythology has (a) been bastardized into barely recognizable form and (b) doesn't mesh at all well with the original urban legend premise of the show.

Seriously. I cringe at some of the things they "attempted" to do with some of the mythologies. It's okay to incorporate some of it to fit the universe, but don't twist it into something so unrecognizable that it just doesn't make sense and is later forgotten by canon entirely. Ugh.
noybusiness: JensenCloseupnoybusiness on March 13th, 2012 12:28 pm (UTC)
Kitsune that eat brains. Amazons that grow up super fast and are "said to be descended from Ares and Harmonia". I could barf.

"Sam Hain". Unforgiveable.

Edited at 2012-03-13 12:29 pm (UTC)
philstar22: Supernatural: Alistairphilstar22 on March 13th, 2012 01:35 am (UTC)
The way the show ignores the unwilling human hosts and just kills them without a second thought really irritates me. I mean, I get that the show is dark, so if they want to go the route of it is impossible to kill a demon without killing the host, fine. Or the route of saying that there isn't much left of the host even if the demon is exorcised. But just ignoring the issue is really, really irritating. Having the brothers and Bobby that callous just isn't making them sympathetic.

All I can think is, I feel so bad for Alistair's second host. Being tortured? A horrible way to go. And Sam uses his powers but doesn't save the host in that case.
philstar22: Supernatural: Womenphilstar22 on March 13th, 2012 01:38 am (UTC)
And the anything that isn't human deserves to be killed irritates me. Especially with ghosts because they used to be human. They are the souls of not necessarily evil people who simply weren't ready to pass on. Surely there has to be some way of sending them to heaven rather than purgatory. I think there is. There was that one ghost in one of the early seasons who didn't even know she was dead who got to pass on.
Renée: Castiel. Show some respect.rogueslayer452 on March 13th, 2012 05:39 am (UTC)
And even with that episode, "Roadkill", Dean was incredibly irked by the ghost herself and ended up being very rude to her at points because he didn't see her as human at all. Except she was human and was just lost, scared, and needed to see the truth in order to move on.

The fact that the show has forgotten that the majority of the beings they've dealt with, from ghosts and variety of monsters to even demons themselves, were all human once, that half of them aren't even dangerous at all and just need some guidance or understanding, or even be saved, is just very disturbing. You'd think after much exposure of this the boys would end up being more sympathetic and try to help others and find alternative means to their cases. But nope. They just kill, they don't save, and if they do save it's for whoever they deem "truly human". It just gets worse. Just look at the way they have treated their non-human friend Castiel. They trapped him, interrogated him and shunned him for things they themselves have done many, many times. But because he's not human, it's okay to treat him in such a way?

How are we supposed to sympathize with them because of this? As the main characters and supposed "heroes" of the story, the show has made them very, very unlikeable. I doubt that was their intention, but with the way they've gone about it over the last couple of seasons, particularly with the lacking of acknowledgment of their actions and consequences that follow, is really telling with how everything has just gone downhill.

(and yet most fans will excuse their behavior and attitudes, put them on a pedestal and coddle them even if they do something wrong to others, because apparently to the loudest in the fandom the show is about ~Sam and Dean~ and anyone else is collateral damage. -__-)
noybusiness: JensenCloseupnoybusiness on March 13th, 2012 12:33 pm (UTC)
Like in "Fresh Blood". When they captured Not!Harmony the vampire, they should have tried to get in touch with Lenore and turn her over to that group for some social work, not cut off her head.

Oh, and there's Sam draining a probably lethal amount of blood from a possessed woman (unnecessarily, as it turns out). If he was any other character, the brothers would say "You've done too much evil if it was for good intentions, and you have to be put down."
Renée: TEAM CAS KILLS EVERYONE.rogueslayer452 on March 13th, 2012 01:07 pm (UTC)
Like in "Fresh Blood". When they captured Not!Harmony the vampire, they should have tried to get in touch with Lenore and turn her over to that group for some social work, not cut off her head.

Exactly. There are so many other options they could do first before doing something violent as a last resort. Just think of how many innocent lives they could save by that alone.

Oh, and there's Sam draining a probably lethal amount of blood from a possessed woman (unnecessarily, as it turns out). If he was any other character, the brothers would say "You've done too much evil if it was for good intentions, and you have to be put down."

I just can't with their hypocrisy. What seriously bugs is how they don't acknowledge this on the actual show. They just expect us to accept it without question all because they are the "heroes" and it's irritating as hell. I like characters with flaws, but those flaws need to be addressed so the characters can fix them and improve themselves. The fact they aren't after seven seasons (or at least stopped caring about the humanity of the matter after a certain point) is just irresponsible and sloppy.
kaiyotekaiyote on March 13th, 2012 03:44 am (UTC)
Ugh. All of this.

And it really bugs me how the morality of it all used to be such a huge issue in the first couple seasons and how now it's like no1curr. Like I was watching 1x22 the other day and Bobby brought up how Meg is just an innocent person who's been possessed and Dean's whole thing with killing that one demon with the Colt and oh! This also reminds me of that one episode with Gordon where he says that he got information out of a demon (obviously by torture) and how the host didn't survive and Dean is like wow, how wonderful you are and like. None of them bat a fucking eyelash at torturing and/or killing demons anymore.

Oh, and related to all of this and the Winchester's being the moral police, it just reminds me of how infuriating it is with how they (+the show) handle Cas when he's doing the exact same things as them. Like in 6x18, I definitely got the feeling that Dean was sympathetic to the Phoenix's plight and his motivations for revenge/killing people, but regardless of that he 'had' to kill him for his ashes in order to defeat Eve. But Cas ends up killing Visyak for her blood (in order to save the world!) and they're all like whoa! whoa! Cas, you've gone insane! Someone hold me back! Like what the fuck? And not only that, but the only reason their reaction is that way is because Bobby knew her and that's it. Plus it's even more annoying to have Bobby react that way because can you imagine how many demons (and thus hosts/innocent people) he must've tortured and killed for his bones theory in order to get his soul back? Ugh, smh. (Not to mention how Dean is fucking torturing (and most likely killing) demons (and their hosts) to find out Lisa and Ben's location in the previous fucking episode.)

Okay, but also with the whole the Winchester's are the moral police thing? I mean, I didn't watch the episodes or anything so maybe I'm missing something here, but: the single mother monster~ gets killed, the married witch gets to live (also there's some comment I think that the husband makes about reigning in his wife's ~crazy behavior), and the amazons (y'know, all women) are all monsters who must be killed. I see.
Renée: Dean/Castiel. Dominance.rogueslayer452 on March 13th, 2012 08:36 am (UTC)
This also reminds me of that one episode with Gordon where he says that he got information out of a demon (obviously by torture) and how the host didn't survive and Dean is like wow, how wonderful you are and like. None of them bat a fucking eyelash at torturing and/or killing demons anymore.

Seriously, never mind how Dean used to torture human souls in Hell as well. You'd think he would be more mindful of the human souls he is still torturing while torturing/killing demons. But nope. It's like all of that PTSD of his time in Hell just magically disappeared and he is becoming that monster, but it's okay right, because ~~they're demons~~ and the humans they are possessing are just "collateral damage" and just, ugh. No. That is disrespectful and insulting on so many levels, I can't even.

Oh, and related to all of this and the Winchester's being the moral police, it just reminds me of how infuriating it is with how they (+the show) handle Cas when he's doing the exact same things as them.

Exactly! And for all the examples you've given, it just angers me even more. Esp concerning Bobby because after that rant he gave the boys earlier in the season, you'd think he would at least understand and be more sympathetic instead of being the one to immediately point fingers and go along with trapping Castiel, interrogating him and being angry and such. No. Just, no.

I hate the moral policing, but I think I hate how the show just doesn't acknowledge this as a flaw. Sure, they've had a few characters mention it in passing (ex. Bobby to the boys, Rachel to the boys) but it's not dealt with seriously or taken to heart. It's as if the show just puts it in there just to say, "well we mentioned it so you can't argue that we didn't" -- like the mentioning of Adam, only to really show that Dean wouldn't choose Adam over Sam in getting him out of Hell, which isn't really new, but just makes him look even worse for not attempting to save Adam after that. Just, ugh.

I mean, I didn't watch the episodes or anything so maybe I'm missing something here, but: the single mother monster~ gets killed, the married witch gets to live (also there's some comment I think that the husband makes about reigning in his wife's ~crazy behavior), and the amazons (y'know, all women) are all monsters who must be killed. I see.

Sexism and gender role policing -- welcome to SPN! *insert eye roll here*

(There are times where I wonder why I watched this show in the first place, the amount of problematic issues that come up is alarming. Even at the convention we have the boys kind of commenting on the negative reaction to women they have on the show via the fanbase -- all which cheered when they mimicked the "get those sluts away from our boys!" and people on Tumblr agreeing with that sentiment -- it's just a whole load of sexist/internal misogyny everywhere. Plus there is that clip for the new episode this week with Dean saying something really sexist and disgusting, thanks Show. Thanks. -___-)
kaiyotekaiyote on March 13th, 2012 10:51 am (UTC)
IKR. And also with Dean and the torture and what philstar22 said above about Alastair and his host? It's also probably very telling that the issue in the episode is about how terrible it is for Dean to have to torture again and how the person Alastair is possessing--who Dean is torturing along with Alastair---and the whole moral dilemma there is never brought into play.

I think I hate how the show just doesn't acknowledge this as a flaw

EXACTLY! And this is why I roll my eyes when people are like "omg but what are you talking about of course they're flawed and they make mistakes and are hypocrites" because jfc. The show does not acknowledge this or deals with it at all; their flaws and mistakes and hypocrisy are not treated as such on the show and that is what people have a fucking problem with. I mean, ffs. Dean kills Amy by using the black and white logic that as she's a monster she'll kill because it's in her nature, which is the exact same fucking reasoning that Gordon used to justify hunting Sam and the rest of the special children, and yet the show (and fandom) vilify Gordon whilst praising Dean. Like hello~ (Oh, and word to what you said about it feeling like they're only mentioning these issues and certain characters in order to be like "there! see! we 'acknowledged' it! (now can you shut up already!)")

And ugh, just smh @ everything.
Kevin Jonesmulder200 on April 15th, 2016 05:18 am (UTC)
Doesn't it bother anyone else that the brothers end up killing the human host the demon is possessing?

Yes! It makes me miss the earlier seasons where they actually CARED about saving people. Now? The boys are just as heartless as the demons they go after.

I kinda also want to address the whole "anything that isn't human deserves to be killed" aspect of the show, which is equally problematic. Never mind how the Winchesters, more often than not, tend to play God in deciding who lives or dies, and in deciding who is "more human" or not. Just, ugh. That is another rant for another time though. :/

THIS! It was one thing when they didn't know any better but now? They should. The whole Humans = Good and Monsters = Bad is too simplistic.

There is a difference between being a monster and doing monstrous things.