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07 July 2010 @ 03:41 pm
Just some food for thought.  
I've been wondering something about Sam and demon blood: Why couldn't they just have him inject himself instead of drinking the stuff? Granted, that could have gone for too much literal of the drug addiction and abuse and they probably wanted to go more for the vampire-esque, gross and disturbing factor with what Sam was doing to himself and also with large quantities instead of just a little here and there, but they could have been it be like a blood transfusion or something. Because when you think about drinking blood, especially large gallons of it like what he was supposed to have done in the S5 finale...it's kind of hard to stomach that someone, even Sam when it was first proposed to him, would even consider doing that.

Also, they keep saying that it's demon's blood. But demons don't have blood, demons on Supernatural are more or less smokey entities that need a physical body to possess. So realistically speaking, it's not really their blood unless their entire being inherits everything inside of that body and their essences leaks into the bloodstream, otherwise the blood Sam is drinking? Is actually human blood, which makes me think about the poor people who are cut and sliced simply for the benefit of Sam's blood addiction.

Another thing, I've been thinking about Sam and his powers and what the demon blood contributes to it. Now yes, it's meant for him to be revved up Hulk-style, but wasn't it Ruby that told him he didn't need the demon blood anyway with that Dumbo speech? That he had the powers inside of him all along, he just needed to believe that the blood could help him? Of course, we can argue that when the YED was alive Sam's powers were activated through that and when he died he no longer how those abilities and it's demon blood that fueled it. But on the show they make a huge deal about Sam being an abomination and how he's been tainted with demon blood running through his veins and whatnot, even when he was supposedly cleansed of it in the S5 premiere. This has never been fully explained on whether or not Sam is truly tainted or that is just a belief because Azazel chose him and that was his destiny to be Lucifer's vessel and all of that. It's never been clear, and I'm wondering if it's an inconsistency with the writing, mainly because had Sam been an abomination he wouldn't have ended up in Heaven in "Dark Side Of The Moon", so I don't know.

Perhaps this was explained before elsewhere, but it's been bothering me for some time now.

In other news that is not unrelated, I've also been curious about the inconsistencies the show has had especially with unfinished or abandoned storylines and arcs, and the more I looked back the more I realized they never really explained many things they put out there, mostly with things that aren't directly connected with the Winchesters. And that's one example of their major flaws in terms of the writing, never mind the mess the fifth season turned out to be. I think once you step back and realize oh wait, this never happened or this was never explained, or hey they didn't follow through with that piece of the storyline, is when you notice those little things that should have been handled better with the story. And I'm the kind of person that likes stories to feel complete, to not have holes or for there to be continuity errors, or for things to happen unrealistically to a character and what they've been going through. When this happens in a show that I watch, I will nitpick at it and it will make me question and/or not like the writers or the direction of the show in general. Does this make me less of a fan? Of course not. These are legitimate concerns to have and everyone should voice their likes and dislikes about something they love, otherwise how else will people in the higher ups listen and see what the people are responding to?

Apparently it seems I have way too many thoughts today, it's been bubbling up in my head and I needed a little release otherwise I would go insane with it. Heh.
 
 
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cheerful_earl: Team Free Willcheerful_earl on July 7th, 2010 11:09 pm (UTC)
which makes me think about the poor people who are cut and sliced simply for the benefit of Sam's blood addiction.

This really bothered me. A lot, actually. I know the Winchesters kill a lot of demons in human bodies while fighting. To me, that's different than actually going out and getting a demon to slice and dice while a human is still inside. That, to me, was what made Sam's actions in the S4 finale so terrible- because he had the power to save that nurse and instead killed her, because the end of killing Lilith justified murder, which is something the show hasn't really ever supported (Like, with "No one's killing any virgins!"). To me, that was Ruby winning, 100%. And then having it replicated in the finale without comment rubbed me wrong. Because they drained human beings. Maybe they were dead already. Maybe they weren't. But no one even paused to consider, "Okay, we have to kill these people to save the world." It was like their deaths weren't even something to think on.

their entire being inherits everything inside of that body and their essences leaks into the bloodstream

That's what I assumed. That once the demon took control, they infused the human body with mystical Hell power or something.

wasn't it Ruby that told him he didn't need the demon blood anyway with that Dumbo speech?

I assumed that too, and thought the whole continuing aspect of demon blood made no sense, but someone else said that she took it as meaning that Ruby meant that Sam didn't need her to lead him; that he made the decisions on his own to do the wrong thing. In that sense, it's she, not the demon blood, that is the feather. Which makes sense, I suppose. But it's confusing.
Renée: Dean/Castiel. Between us.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 05:30 am (UTC)
I mean, I get there are bigger stakes here and sometimes small sacrifices must be made for that greater good, but that's something I wanted them to really consider because saving lives of people is something they've been so adamant about. And I agree, there's a huge difference between being in a fight with demons and what it looks like from the finale where it seemed like they captured demons just to drain their blood. Especially if this plan backfired, which it essentially did, what did those people's lives mean in the grand scheme of things? You'd think they would at least mention this or something. But it doesn't seem like they have any regards for these poor people who fell in unfortunate grasps of being possessed.

Just a mention about that, even in passing, would be nice just so we get that this isn't easy for them to accomplish even if it's something they have to do. Because it is their mission statement to save lives, even the ones who are possessed by these demons, and while they are doing this to save the entire world, just a moment to reconsider this action would at least make me feel better.

(this also gets me thinking about all the angels that have been killed, but I suppose that could be explained away given that these people gave consent to be part of something greater, unlike those possessed by demons)

See, the problem I have with the entire demon blood is that we're always assuming different things and some of it make sense, but there's nothing concrete in this information because it's all over the place and completely vague. Hence all the confusion, and then they add in this thing with Lucifer needing the blood, which is something I can't even comprehend how that even makes sense in continuity to everything. Because Lucifer is an angel, a powerful angel at that, why would he need demon blood if Sam is truly his vessel? Unless it was to ensure Lucifer would win, but why mention it at the last moment and not way before when they could have spaced all of this out?
cheerful_earl: dean/cascheerful_earl on July 8th, 2010 07:19 am (UTC)
I really did just want a mention. Or something. I get that the stakes are high and yeah, five people against the whole universe? I get that. But at least take the time to realize what you're doing. I think they just ignored it because the focus was on Sam and what the blood would do to him. Hm.

I really dislike the Lucifer having to drink blood thing. They brought up the fact that he was an angel and had to follow all the same rules, so I just don't understand why Lucifer would have to drink demon blood. I guess I can kind of see it with Nick- to keep him from drying out or busting a part, like some sort of scary lubrication, maybe? But Sam? And I guess I can see Sam needing to drink the blood to throw Lucifer off- I mean, it makes him stronger. But both? Just makes no sense to me.

Demon blood = problematic at this stage in the game. I had no issues with it in S4 (or before that, since it was what initially gave Sam his powers), but it's just being thrown everywhere now.
Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 10:08 am (UTC)
Except what did the blood do to him, exactly? It didn't really serve much purpose either way if Sam was dead-set on agreeing to becoming his vessel and falling into the cage. So it was really kind of pointless, imo.

I guess I can kind of see it with Nick- to keep him from drying out or busting a part, like some sort of scary lubrication, maybe? But Sam? And I guess I can see Sam needing to drink the blood to throw Lucifer off- I mean, it makes him stronger. But both? Just makes no sense to me.

My thoughts exactly, bb. Again, sloppy writing being sloppy and illogical. One could argue that with Lucifer's powers and Sam's own powers being all revved up it he could essentially be more powerful than ever before, but that was never shown or indicated. It just makes little sense why they would add that random factor in, especially so late into the game. Then again, they added a lot of things late into the game of the plot of the storyline, so it shouldn't surprise me that they were just pulling things out of their ass to waste some screentime (when they should have been filling it with the other character arcs and explanations, but that's using logic!)

Demon blood = problematic at this stage in the game. I had no issues with it in S4 (or before that, since it was what initially gave Sam his powers), but it's just being thrown everywhere now.

Totally problematic. Also, how exactly did this help Sam overcome his addictions? Wasn't that the goal of this season? He had been trying so hard but they did just keep throwing in there, hopefully disguising it as something of a plot device except it's one that has no purpose being in there when it makes little sense to his character arc of redemption this season.
Kevin Jonesmulder200 on July 8th, 2010 12:11 am (UTC)
Also, they keep saying that it's demon's blood. But demons don't have blood, demons on Supernatural are more or less smokey entities that need a physical body to possess. So realistically speaking, it's not really their blood unless their entire being inherits everything inside of that body and their essences leaks into the bloodstream, otherwise the blood Sam is drinking? Is actually human blood, which makes me think about the poor people who are cut and sliced simply for the benefit of Sam's blood addiction.

Yes. Someone else on my friends' list pointed out this same problem.

Also, there is no way in the world someone can drink that much liquid and not throw up. Injection makes a lot more sense.

And I will also add that Sam was so lying to Dean because he was so NOT over his blood cravings.


Another thing, I've been thinking about Sam and his powers and what the demon blood contributes to it. Now yes, it's meant for him to be revved up Hulk-style, but wasn't it Ruby that told him he didn't need the demon blood anyway with that Dumbo speech? That he had the powers inside of him all along, he just needed to believe that the blood could help him?


The writers apparently can't make up their minds either which is just sad. Was he born with the powers or were they given to him? I just don't know.

Also, can someone explain to me why Lucifer would need to drink demon blood to stay in Nick? That plot point made zero sense to me.



Renée: SPN. Castiel.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 03:45 am (UTC)
Also, there is no way in the world someone can drink that much liquid and not throw up. Injection makes a lot more sense.

Exactly. Besides Sam isn't some superhuman being or whatever, he's human. Even with having this particular destiny since the beginning you have to think realistically on that level, and him drinking all that blood? There is no way that is remotely possible, even if he does get revved up from it. I think injections are far more logical because even a single dose I can see Sam getting that power-high, so to speak. Just seeing that scene in the finale, seeing those gallons of blood, it's just...there's no way. No possible way. He would have died ingesting all that blood.

And I will also add that Sam was so lying to Dean because he was so NOT over his blood cravings.

He's definitely not. Anyone that's an addict of anything knows that you can never really truly be over a certain craving, it'll still be there deep down. The thing with this though is that Sam was trying to quit, trying really hard. The incident with Famine increased it, and then with the finale where he had to drink all of that? That's enabling his addiction, not helping it.

The writers apparently can't make up their minds either which is just sad. Was he born with the powers or were they given to him? I just don't know.

I always thought that him becoming Lucifer's vessel had always been his destiny (as it was sad it was long foretold that both he and Dean were meant for something special in this war) and that, as revealed in S2, Azazel dropped some of his powerful demon blood into baby!Sammy's mouth to ensure he would prove himself to be powerful. But then you have to wonder, why would he need demon blood anyway if this was supposedly his destiny to begin with? I mean sure, that action of Azazel being there in Sammy's room that night prompted everything from the beginning, but there's just a lot of gaps here that need to be filled. Is he an abomination because of the demon blood or because of being Lucifer's vessel? Why does he need the blood fix when Lucifer is already big and powerful enough as it is?

There's loads of inconsistencies here that shouldn't be, because I see what they wanted to do with it but in the end nothing makes sense with how they handled it or wanted us to believe in what they did.

Also, can someone explain to me why Lucifer would need to drink demon blood to stay in Nick? That plot point made zero sense to me.

I don't even know. The fact this (and everything else about the Apocalypse) was revealed at the last second just screams "sloppy writing, just adding in random bullshit things" to wrap it all up faster. :/
goldenusagigoldenusagi on July 8th, 2010 01:08 am (UTC)
wasn't it Ruby that told him he didn't need the demon blood anyway with that Dumbo speech? That he had the powers inside of him all along, he just needed to believe that the blood could help him?

I thought she meant that the anger was in him all along. Like he said "you did something" [to control him or make him do these things], but no, it was Sam himself who had the anger and wanted the power and would do anything to kill Lilith.

The drinking demon blood at the end of S5 was disgusting, though, even implied. And I never liked or understood why Lucifer would have to drink the blood. So much was made of him being an angel, not different rules, etc.
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 03:20 am (UTC)
That could be it, but I don't know. It's completely vague on what she actually meant because it could be either one or both, but they don't make it clear on it specifically. I mean I understand about the anger and about him using the powers for his own intentions but totally oblivious to what Ruby was setting him up for, but at the same time it doesn't really answer the question about the origin of his abilities or if he really truly does need the demon blood to use them, or whatever.

The drinking demon blood at the end of S5 was disgusting, though, even implied. And I never liked or understood why Lucifer would have to drink the blood. So much was made of him being an angel, not different rules, etc.

I never understand that either. If Lucifer was powerful to begin with and growing stronger even in his non-vessel, and Sam was his true vessel, wouldn't he practically be invincible without the demon blood? That just made no sense whatsoever, it was just a last minute add-in to make the connection of Sam "fulfilling his destiny" and defeating Lucifer or whatever and completely shunned Dean and his storyline in the process. I mean, did Lucifer expect to become ever stronger with all that demon blood? I just don't get that. They never really made an kind of explanation for that or anything else about Lucifer, even with all this rich material and mythology they just sidelined it at the end.
Tracy: Cas Don't Wanna Feel Todayalexwhitman25 on July 8th, 2010 03:36 am (UTC)
You raise some really good points/ideas about the whole demon blood fiasco. Unfortunately, I am as confused as you are about most of it. I do wonder about where they got the blood from in the S5 finale. Did they really kill all those demons to feed to Sammy or did they magically come across a stash of dead demons?

I always intrepreted Ruby's Dumbo comment as more of that Sam's thoughts and choices to make the decisions that he did were always inside of him, not all excused away by the demon blood contributing to this mindset. But it is confusing and was never touched on again, which is typical of show.

It can be so frustrating when one really thinks about all the loose ends, inconsistencies, and dropped elements throughout the series. It sorta makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

Sorta off topic, but I was reading this fic today and this quote from it:

"For all that Dean and Sam have done -- and they've done a shitload -- they don't change. Characters that don't change can still be likeable, but they aren't relatable.

Castiel is relatable because he's changed. Is still changing, faster than the words can be written. People like change. People relate to change; it's a very human thing."


really got me thinking. I never really considered how much Cas's continual growth as a character probably played a big part of my gravitating to him and my attatchment to his character. I mean there are lots of other reasons why I love Cas so much, but this smacked me in the face reading the fic. I mean my biggest complaint with Show for a long time has been the continued lack of any real character growth with the Winchesters.

(The fic, btw, is called Named by mclachland. I'm only part way through, it's a Big Bang, but it is incredible so far).
Renée: Castiel. Guardian angel.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 07:02 am (UTC)
Did they really kill all those demons to feed to Sammy or did they magically come across a stash of dead demons?

Which really begs the question, do demons die inside of the body they're possessing or do they simply just disappear into oblivion and what's left is the the corpse? Because if the latter happened then what they're draining would have been human blood, not demon blood. So it makes me wonder how they organized this, like did they play bait to capture them or round them up, trap them to drain their blood? None of this was shown or explained.

I always interpreted Ruby's Dumbo comment as more of that Sam's thoughts and choices to make the decisions that he did were always inside of him, not all excused away by the demon blood contributing to this mindset. But it is confusing and was never touched on again, which is typical of show.

I wouldn't be as confused if there was a clear indication about what Ruby was meaning behind her words, because I can see it going both ways. However it was just her gloating to Sam in that scene and, like you said, it was never touched on again when it's actually incredibly relevant had they gone through with his development about his addiction and so forth which just makes it even more confusing. You know what I mean?

I really need to watch that scene again to really pick out what's between the lines, though. But it just seems to not be as important if they never brought it up again since it was mostly about Sam and his addiction.

It can be so frustrating when one really thinks about all the loose ends, inconsistencies, and dropped elements throughout the series. It sorta makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

Yeah, tell me about it. I would really like the enjoy the show as it is like some people do but, in my analytical mind and being a fan at the same time, I both love it yet hate what they've done with many aspects to the story. It's incredibly frustrating and it makes me wonder what the hell is going on in the writer's room and if they actually plan things out or just play it by ear.

Ohhh, I really like that quote because it does ring absolutely true.

I do love the Winchesters, but half of my frustrations with the show is that there's hardly much noticeable growth happening on the screen because everything they do is repeat the same thing over and over with each other. Sam has anger issues, Dean is broken and damaged, they are codependent on each other, and so on. But this makes it interesting because I have begun to really migrate from them to characters like Castiel and Gabriel and Lucifer, all these supporting roles, because there's room for development. Castiel certainly has been evolving ever since we met him, and what made me love Gabriel was the more depth we got about his character background which makes him interesting.

As much as I do love the Winchesters, they tend to stand still without much character growth. I think out of them both Dean has grown the most, esp from his experiences, but there hasn't been much with him coping or dealing with things. Castiel, after he rebelled and was cast out of Heaven, learned to adapt to his surroundings even if he was unfamiliar with how humans dealt with living their lives day by day. That's what makes it interesting to see, not the same old stuff every time.

Of course, I'm preaching to the choir here so, everything I'm saying is just repeating what you said. Just, more wordy. ;)

I'm definitely going to check that BB out now, that you recced it with that quote. Thanks! :D
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexylove_jackianto on July 8th, 2010 03:37 pm (UTC)
'I do love the Winchesters, but half of my frustrations with the show is that there's hardly much noticeable growth happening on the screen because everything they do is repeat the same thing over and over with each other. Sam has anger issues, Dean is broken and damaged, they are codependent on each other, and so on. But this makes it interesting because I have begun to really migrate from them to characters like Castiel and Gabriel and Lucifer, all these supporting roles, because there's room for development. Castiel certainly has been evolving ever since we met him, and what made me love Gabriel was the more depth we got about his character background which makes him interesting.

As much as I do love the Winchesters, they tend to stand still without much character growth. I think out of them both Dean has grown the most, esp from his experiences, but there hasn't been much with him coping or dealing with things. Castiel, after he rebelled and was cast out of Heaven, learned to adapt to his surroundings even if he was unfamiliar with how humans dealt with living their lives day by day. That's what makes it interesting to see, not the same old stuff every time.'

Hear! Hear! It's like I've said before, I like Castiel because not only is it interesting to see how he changes over the course of two seasons, but his relationship/friendship with Dean really brought something different to the show; as far as we know, Castiel is the only friend outside of Sam Dean has ever had.
Renée: Dean/Castiel. BFFs.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 08:17 pm (UTC)
lol, I love how you just quoted those entire two paragraphs. ;)

The relationship between Dean and Castiel is one of my favorites, because it does give us something different that we haven't seen before. A new character that had a great deal of development, that was relevant to the show, and Dean stepping away from Sam not like he doesn't care anymore but more like them going on their own separate paths and allowing Dean to find a friendship that he's never had before. And I love the paralleling between Castiel and Dean, how they are so much alike even coming from different worlds.

I only wished they could have transcended that more into the fifth season. There were episodes here and there, but not extensively as the fourth season did with their growing and developing friendship and bond, you know?
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexylove_jackianto on July 9th, 2010 10:30 pm (UTC)
'And I love the paralleling between Castiel and Dean, how they are so much alike even coming from different worlds.'
That is great, I do love parallels like that. Heck, if Cas had had a female vessel I would have excepted Cas to become Dean's love interest. I would have found that so much more believable than Dean/Lisa at least.

'lol, I love how you just quoted those entire two paragraphs. ;)'
What can I say, they were two great paragraphs :D

'There were episodes here and there, but not extensively as the fourth season did with their growing and developing friendship and bond, you know?'
I know. I really hope since the writers keep calling season six a more intimate season, that they deal more with Dean and Cas' friendship and maybe even some of Cas and Sam's relationship. If they are going to go back to MOTW episodes every week, they have to give me something different to keep me interested.
Tracy: Cas Nerdy Angelalexwhitman25 on July 9th, 2010 04:35 am (UTC)
Ugh. I never even thought about what happens to the actual demons when they are killed. The more I think about the whole situation, the more irked I become.

You are totally right about the Dumbo comment. It was basically left to interpret however one wants to or tries to make sense out of. It was big thing and it was just never mentioned again or clarified. Probably because they themselves didn't know what they meant or didn't want to write themselves into a corner for when they inevitably changed their mind to suit some plotline.

I love that you pick at these type things and discuss it. We both share that sort of view on the show. That's just how we're built. I can't help but want to delve into things and get something out of it rather than just be entertained by the shiny and pretty.

EXACTLY! We both feel the same way about the issue of non-growth when it comes to the boys and the way that reflects on the show for us. Every time I get excited that they are gonna go somewhere characterizationwise, they later take a huge step backward and make it all void. It's so frustrating. And, like you said, it's why we embrace these supporting characters so much.

Also? I finished that fic just now...and it was one of the most amazing works of fanfic that I have ever read. It was like a perfect storm of fic with everything one could ever want plotwise and characterizationwise.
kaiyotekaiyote on July 8th, 2010 04:01 am (UTC)
I kind of almost wonder if Sam literally just BURNS up the demon blood the second he drinks it or when it hits his stomach or something, because, yeah... you cannot drink that amount of blood. FIGHT CLUB SAYS SO...

And I think I had always assumed that when a demon possesses someone they possess them... fully? Like, even down to their blood. So when Sam is drinking demon blood there literally are traces of the demon in it. Or something like that?

As for Ruby... now I'm not so sure. At first when I watched it I assumed she meant that Sam just didn't need the demon blood and that it acted like a placebo and he was always capable of that level of power. But now I really don't know because I remember so little of his powers in the first place... So maybe she didn't mean that at all. :/

mainly because had Sam been an abomination he wouldn't have ended up in Heaven in "Dark Side Of The Moon"
I can't remember his name, but the angel who speaks to God did say (or imply, at least) that God had allowed Sam into Heaven, despite everything he had done (and probably is). So... that sort of answers that?

Okay, and re: Lucifer drinking demon blood.

I started thinking about this and it started to make sense... until I thought about it more and realized it made even less sense than when I began. Because how does an angel drinking demon blood help out an angel at all?

I mean, wouldn't being an angel burn out any demonic properties the blood has? :/

Which is why I don't particularly understand Sam drinking Cas's blood fics. Like, yeah, it would be hot... but if Sam has demon blood in him, shouldn't Cas's blood be corrosive to him? :|
Renée: Castiel. Searching for answers.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 06:09 am (UTC)
Part 1
I kind of almost wonder if Sam literally just BURNS up the demon blood the second he drinks it or when it hits his stomach or something, because, yeah... you cannot drink that amount of blood.

Now there's an image, lol. But seriously yeah, there's no logical way of explaining that because it really isn't logical or realistic. Sam is human, and we humans have limitations to our entire bodies and just yeah, it's absolutely impossible to ingest that quantity of blood like that.

And I think I had always assumed that when a demon possesses someone they possess them... fully? Like, even down to their blood. So when Sam is drinking demon blood there literally are traces of the demon in it. Or something like that?

But even so, he's still drinking human blood regardless of that. This is something I really wish they would give explanations or background about the mechanics of demon possession on the show just so we get a clear understanding about how all of this works. Do demons literally take control of everything, their entire essence right down to the blood, or are they just simply just wearing the body like a suit and controlling the mechanics of the human body from that? Also, would Sam be able to tell between human blood and demon blood? What if he couldn't, like what if Sam really did give into tasting the demon blood in 5.02 "Good God, Y'All?" Would he be able to tell that it's not demon blood or if there's a distinction? That's something else I've been wondering, too.

Because in the finale, we see supposedly dead drained demons hanging upside down....it makes me wonder were they already dead or did they slowly torture them while draining their blood? When a demon dies do they die within the body or disparate leaving the human corpse behind? These are questions that I have.
Renée: Castiel. Searching for answers.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 06:09 am (UTC)
Part 2
As for Ruby... now I'm not so sure. At first when I watched it I assumed she meant that Sam just didn't need the demon blood and that it acted like a placebo and he was always capable of that level of power. But now I really don't know because I remember so little of his powers in the first place... So maybe she didn't mean that at all. :/

I could see it about her telling Sam that it wasn't her fault, that he made all these decisions himself (which he did, he believed that he was in the right) since she was gloating about how "awesome" she was about actually accomplishing this task and him getting angry over it. But at the same time, I thought that it can also be about the demon blood, her manipulating him into thinking that that would help him but instead it wasn't about the blood, it was about him thinking that he needed something when he had it inside of him the entire time. It's just a huge pile of vagueness on what she was actually referring to, because it could be either one or all of the above, depending on how you view it.

But with something like Sam drinking demon blood that has to be some kind of effect anyway, because didn't Castiel say that the more he drank he wouldn't be the same? Taking into consideration all he drank in the S5 finale and whatnot, there's just too much inconsistency with that alone.

I can't remember his name, but the angel who speaks to God did say (or imply, at least) that God had allowed Sam into Heaven, despite everything he had done (and probably is). So... that sort of answers that?

Oh yeah, you're right I had totally forgotten about that. Heh. Because despite what others say about Sam, it doesn't matter what he was destined for, it matters what's in his heart and he's always tried to do the right thing, even if he was stubbornly misguided in the fourth season. I think that really says a lot just from that alone.

I mean, wouldn't being an angel burn out any demonic properties the blood has? :/

I know, it makes no sense why that would even be a factor even for an angel like Lucifer. I get they probably were trying to connect why Sam needed demon blood in the first place, but I always figured it would just to kill Lilith and release Lucifer from his cage. Beyond that he was just going to be his vessel, but adding the notion that Lucifer needed the demon blood? That just makes absolutely no sense with the consistency of the show and what we'd already known from these last two seasons. It makes it seem like they were really just pulling things from their asses on that front. Had it been mentioned before and fleshed out on why this had to happen I wouldn't have much problem with it, but as it stands it makes no sense.
kaiyotekaiyote on July 8th, 2010 07:00 pm (UTC)
Re: Part 2
Yeah, the whole demon blood thing is making even less sense to me now.

Because at first I thought it was a more biological aspect. Like, when Cas said in 4x21 that the amount of blood Sam would need to drink in order to defeat Lilith would cause him to become something Dean would be compelled to hunt... that sounds more biological to me.

But then if you take Heaven into account... why exactly would your biology factor into whether or not you got into Heaven? That really makes no sense to me and it seems like demon blood would have to affect you on a spiritual level more than a biological one.

But if does change you spiritually... what does that have to do with Lucifer drinking blood!?!?

idk. This is just making even less and less sense. MAYBE IT IS JUST MAGICAL MAGIC. :P

As for Lucifer not just healing Nick, ect, I use this reasoning:
He's too powerful. I mean, that's the problem in the first place, isn't it? He's got so much energy he's literally burning Nick up. I think if he were to put anymore power into Nick's body (or use it on the body) it would start to degrade faster than it already is.

(Or: Lucifer actually IS healing Nick constantly, but because he's so powerful he burns him up just as fast as he can heal him.)

Lucifer needing demon blood still makes NO sense whatsoever to me, though, nor why they added it in at the last minute when it seriously did not add to the plot or anything at all. (Plus it really bothers me how like all of Season 5 they were basically like 'don't do drugs drink demon blood, kids!' and then in the end Sam just drinks a shitload of demon blood. Like, oh, okay...)
Renée: Castiel. Bitch please.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 07:52 pm (UTC)
Re: Part 2
idk. This is just making even less and less sense. MAYBE IT IS JUST MAGICAL MAGIC. :P

That is probably their reasoning, too. WE CAN'T FIND ANYTHING LOGICAL TO SAY ABOUT THIS, SO WE ARE JUST MAKING IT UP AND HOPING ~MAGICAL DEMON BLOOD~ SOLVES EVERYONE'S PROBLEMS!!!! And yet, of course, nothing ever happens with the blood at all anyway, so it didn't further the plot at all and was unnecessary to even bring into the story at this point, you know?

Lucifer actually IS healing Nick constantly, but because he's so powerful he burns him up just as fast as he can heal him

I've always believed this actually, since he needed a stable vessel to use until Sam came around to signing himself over to become his true meatsuit. And while he continues to repair Nick and holding him together it just continues to get worse, hence him looking worse and worse the more we saw Lucifer over the course of the season. Although, it makes me wonder how Nick was chosen. Was he just some random person Lucifer found, or was there a particular reason? Since I always thought that angels were connected specific bloodlines of certain people, so it makes me wonder about that kind of thing.

Another aspect the show probably will never touch on, unfortunately.

Plus it really bothers me how like all of Season 5 they were basically like 'don't do drugs drink demon blood, kids!' and then in the end Sam just drinks a shitload of demon blood. Like, oh, okay...

Exactly! The fact that it was about Sam's redemption and trying to recover from his addiction, only to enable it because he had "no other choice" is kind of like, okay. What was the point of this season and his storyline anyway? Like I get it, he overpowered Lucifer (which I still don't by that he could have done that from a freaking toy soldier and memories, bitches plz...), but what is this saying exactly? You have to kick your bad habits but if it's saving the world then okay, overdose on your addiction! Yeah, no. Sorry show, had you introduced this part earlier in the season and have Sam fight and resist such an urge I probably would have accepted it. But here? Nope. I call bullshit.
(Deleted comment)
Renée: Castiel + Cell phone = OTP.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 09:55 am (UTC)
That way I don't have to try to make scientific sense of the whole thing. IT'S JUST MAGIC. *sticks fingers in ears, lalala*

lol, that would be easier just to accept things, wouldn't it? But my analytical mind just cannot do that, apparently. There has to be some explanations involved for me to at least understand where they are getting at, and if not realistically then at least in a way that makes sense in their universe. When there's that lack of explaining things or going back to something that was brought up, it drives me crazy sometimes.

I was never grossed out by the blood drinking before, but just thinking about how much he had to drink in the finale? Yeah no, sorry, that is unrealistic to me since anyone else would have gotten sick or thrown up or possibly died. And it being demon blood is not a valid excuse, in my opinion. Blood is still blood being ingested into the body, and that's not good at all no matter how you spin it.

I haven't been able to fanwank Lucifer needing demon blood to sustain his vessel at all. Actually, I can't even remember why it was necessary for the plot. Mostly it just seems random and illogical. He's an archangel, can't he just continuously heal his vessel?

It is random and illogical, and the more you think about it the more irrational it is with the continuity of the lore they had given. I mean, the entire blood thing was mentioned at the last minute so, of course it wouldn't make sense. This is just one of the factors that should have been left out since it served no purpose whatsoever to the main plot because what did the demon blood do exactly? Nothing. You're right, there is no way to fanwank a plausible reason for the blood to even enter the equation. Lucifer was powerful enough to kill all those pagan gods in "Hammer of the Gods" and he continued to be stronger, why wouldn't he be like that inside his own freaking vessel? That's just weak writing if you ask me.
just a small town girl: [lie to me] lightmancarameltrap on July 8th, 2010 01:16 pm (UTC)
I remember that Sam never had to drink demon blood pre-S4 for his powers to work. At least, from what I can remember. Perhaps the writers decided on the angel vs demon showdown by making Sam ingest demon blood to paint him as the abomination, the guy going Vader whereas Dean is heaven's champion. IDK.

Actually, when I think about it, what does the demon blood exactly? Wouldn't it have been digested after he drank it? How does it boost his powers and does drinking a lot of demon blood really turn a person demonic or is it with Sam's case only?

This is why I close my eyes and overlook those inconsistencies. I came up with more questions than answers.
Renée: Cara. Warrior.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 07:28 pm (UTC)
My theory from that is because Azazel was still alive and perhaps his blood that coursed inside of Sam was connected to him and when he died, Sam no longer had those abilities. Because his powers were incredibly different from the ones he's been having in S4/S5, like in the beginning he mostly had psychic visions. Here he's just been exorcising demons with whatever power he has, which could have been what Azazel was prepping him for, obviously. So when Ruby first came to Sam it was because he needed to be revved up for unleashing Lucifer. But that still doesn't really answer the question about what the demon blood enables, if he's had this power inside of him the entire time or still has traces of demon blood in his veins that can only be charged up if he drinks the blood. It should be a simple answer, but they seem to go in circles regarding that.

Actually, when I think about it, what does the demon blood exactly? Wouldn't it have been digested after he drank it? How does it boost his powers and does drinking a lot of demon blood really turn a person demonic or is it with Sam's case only?

I think it's just in Sam's case because of what Azazel did to him and his destiny, but that raises a lot of questions. What would happen if a normal person were to drink demon blood? That's something the show hasn't touched on, and probably never will.

Yeah. The inconsistencies and plot holes will confuse me even more, and while I do love the show it makes me wonder if they actually think this stuff through or that they hope nobody will notice those gaps.
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexylove_jackianto on July 8th, 2010 03:31 pm (UTC)
'And I'm the kind of person that likes stories to feel complete, to not have holes or for there to be continuity errors, or for things to happen unrealistically to a character and what they've been going through. When this happens in a show that I watch, I will nitpick at it and it will make me question and/or not like the writers or the direction of the show in general. Does this make me less of a fan? Of course not.'
You'd be surprised. In the Torchwood fandom if you don't think Russell T Davis is a genius and therefore can't be criticized you're really not a true fan. And people wonder why I'm not really in that fandom anymore.

I try not the think about the demon blood thing because that was just one giant plot hole.

Renée: Castiel. Wings.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 06:59 pm (UTC)
It's always frustrating to find that in any fandom, really, and it makes having logical arguments with them impossible. Luckily I've kind of stayed clear of anything like that happening, but I've seen it around and it's not pretty because it's like, so what I can't have a differing opinion without everyone ganging up on me thinking I am not a true fan? That's ridiculous, and yet with some of the collective minds of fans they believe in that wholeheartedly, it's kind of frightening that even though I love being part of fandom, it makes me repelled by it at the same time.

The more I do think about what they've done with the show, the more I notice the handfuls of plot holes they had.
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexylove_jackianto on July 8th, 2010 07:52 pm (UTC)
'It's always frustrating to find that in any fandom, really, and it makes having logical arguments with them impossible.'
Tell me about it. I once ran into someone who actually said that Russell T Davies wasn't supposed to be criticized because he's a professional writer. I wasn't really sure how to respond to that.

'That's ridiculous, and yet with some of the collective minds of fans they believe in that wholeheartedly, it's kind of frightening that even though I love being part of fandom, it makes me repelled by it at the same time.'
I think that's one of the reasons I tend to stay on the fringes of most fandoms, well that and the fact I can't stand shipper wars.

'The more I do think about what they've done with the show, the more I notice the handfuls of plot holes they had.'
Yeah. That's always made me think that Kripke might have had a vague five-year plan, but nothing set in stone. Apparently angles wouldn't have even shown up if not the writer's strike and In the Beginning was originally going to focus on John, and Mary wasn't even going to be a hunter.
Renée: Castiel. Searching for answers.rogueslayer452 on July 8th, 2010 08:12 pm (UTC)
Tell me about it. I once ran into someone who actually said that Russell T Davies wasn't supposed to be criticized because he's a professional writer. I wasn't really sure how to respond to that.

Right, because professional writers can't be criticized at all. *rolls eyes*

Oh, I dislike shipping wars too. I never understood it other than trying to convince the other person that one persons pairing is better than theirs or convert them, which we know will never happen. Sometimes that wank that comes from it can be entertaining, but I don't participate because I'm like, like what you like and I like what I like. Everyone is happy.

Yeah. That's always made me think that Kripke might have had a vague five-year plan, but nothing set in stone. Apparently angles wouldn't have even shown up if not the writer's strike and In the Beginning was originally going to focus on John, and Mary wasn't even going to be a hunter.

I liked that the WGA strike prompted many creators to rethink or reorganize their thoughts about how they were going to further their shows because of the temporary halt. I certainly think the main reason why S4 gained so much ratings was because of that different direction of adding in the angels and had they not done that it would had stayed the same-old stuff. Which, as what we've said before, if that happened I probably would have gradually drifted from the show. And it seems like that was good for the story and plot, but since then there wasn't anything else they planned ahead or managed how it should work out.
I need more fandoms like CKR needs more sexylove_jackianto on July 9th, 2010 10:36 pm (UTC)
'Right, because professional writers can't be criticized at all. *rolls eyes*'
Someone really should tell that to all those people that review movies, books and tv shows for a living.

'Sometimes that wank that comes from it can be entertaining, but I don't participate because I'm like, like what you like and I like what I like. Everyone is happy.'
Pretty much. Although I have to wonder why people spend so much time concentrating on ships they hate when they could be concentrating on ships they like. It's not as if their paring will become canon or anything if they actually win the ship war.

'And it seems like that was good for the story and plot, but since then there wasn't anything else they planned ahead or managed how it should work out.'
It looks that way.